Andalusian Funnel-Web Spider in Aragon or not?

[argyrodes]

Hi I live in a part of Aragon called the Matarrana (North East Spain) and I have seen a spider identical to an Andalusian Funnel-Web Spider (Macrothele calpeiana) on a couple of occasions last summer, it is jet black around 40-50mm and when disturbed is very agressive raising its front legs on both occasions I saw this in the same place, I though it was a spider common to the area and as I was working at the time I did not have the time or a camera at hand to take a photo!  Like most of spain we had a great deal of snow this winter so if it is an "extranjero" I guess it/they will not survive the winter? As this spider should only be found further south and if the spider I have seen is not Macrothele calpeiana what other spider could it be

New post on above 5/2/10
Sitting in a local bar which has internet and viewing the generously informative response on this post, a number of "granjeros" who are always interested in what other people (me) are up to, in order to have something to extend the morning coffee break and chat a little longer!!

In short, big fat jet black aggressive spiders (like the photos in the gallery of Macrothele calpeiana) have been seen by them here, and the barman (ex forestal) who is from Zaragoza, informs me he has seen spiders similar to these around the outskirts north of Zaragoza close to the burrows of rabbits, which may offer a winter refuge?

All I can do is wait for early summer and keep my eyes open!

[Dave]

Hi Argyrodes
Welcome to Iberianature
An Excellent article on the Funnel web here
http://www.wildsideholidays.com/natural/insects-and-creepy-crawlies/91-spiders-etc/71-andalucian-funnel-web-spider.html.
I am sure the webmaster, Clive, will be chipping in as he is the Author
Regards
Dave

[andyj]

hi Argyrodes,
I’m no expert on spiders, but, what you have seen is not necessarily something other than the funnel web - it could happen that this IS the funnel web spider. It is right to be cautious and there are a number of reasons that may mean it might not be the funnel web but equally there may be reasons that mean it might be, but geography is not always one of the key reasons why it might not be.

However, in light of your caution (which is right) I’m gonna kinda go off on one below about species and finding new records outside “known” areas…..but I think it might be interesting to you, using the spider as an example.

The spider is very under recorded and recently only been recorded from the Algarve (2007) for the first time where there is now a proliferation of records.
The spider's distribution (although currently southern Iberia biased) appears to be more strongly associated to localised climate, ground vegetation, microtopographical features (nooks and crannies, crevices, stones to hide under) and precipitation levels rather than the previously theorised broad habitat type of cork oak woodland - so it may turn up in more places than previously surveyed. Also, recording effort to find the spider has been biased around Tarifa and this part of the peninsula where the original sightings were documented so there are always going to be more recorded sightings here, giving a possible false impression that it is “restricted” or “associated” to this specific area, but only because no one has looked elsewhere. When understanding this, it is then easy to see how ecologists can misinterpret the results and have suggested that the spider is associated with cork oak, since that is the dominant habitat of much of the non-intensively managed countryside.
It is not unknown for entomologists (or indeed specialists from other taxonomic disciplines) to get the wrong end of the stick with what some of these scarce and poorly understood species require from a landscape. Recent developments in invertebrate understanding have led to a different outlook on invertebrate ecological needs. Their demands from an area are much more complicated than you might think. For example a bee may nest in one type of habitat (or more accurately a “feature” such as  dry, bare ground with uninterrupted sunlight) but require a completely different set of features from which to forage (species rich grassland with yellow composites or legumes in sheltered depressions) that may be several hundred metres away. The demands from an area are therefore high and it is not difficult to see how some species become scarce as the countryside becomes more homogenised.

Not sure if I’m making sense here, but in essence just because Macrothale has never been found in an area doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It is simply that no one has looked for it there. You may have the right set of habitat features for the spider to live in your area, but don’t worry if you don’t have cork oak woodland, it may be a red herring!!!!
I’ve found loads of stuff that have only previously been recorded hundreds of miles away, but it is just that there isn’t anyone else looking due to a slight lack of ento-geeks. I know your potential record is more than a few hundred miles away but you get the idea……

Anyway, back to the direct question.
Being a European protected species you unfortunately cant go out and collect a specimen next summer to send off to an expert so if I were you I'd contact someone who is dealing with this spider to let them know your thoughts. They will be able to give you more information as to what it might be if not Macrothale, or follow up your sighting if the local conditions under which you found the spider fit the known or proposed habitat requirements.

Best of luck, and hope you haven’t fallen to sleep!!!!



Andy

[Sue]

Hi Argyrodes,

We have many Andalusian funnel-web spiders living in our garden where they cope fine with frosts and -5ºc temperatures.
Andy has given a very good answer there - never say never. Many creatures are transported accidently within say plants and garden products, whether they can then expand and populate or simply die off unnoticed will depend on many factors.

Welcome to the Iberianature Forum,
Sue

[Clive]

Blimey Andy.... Thats the bigest post you have ever made.... I have noted it down in the forum record book... Brilliant info though... One thing I have learned here when it comes to all sorts or wildlife is never to say never.... Things pop up all over the place that the books say aren't here etc etc....

A photograph from Argyrodes posted here will be fairly easy to identify so thats your mission agent A should you wish to accept it..... Once it's identified we'll submit it to insecatrium virtual for proper ID and then hopefully the distribution maps will slowly but surely be updated.....

Welcome to the forum Argyrodes... be very nice to hear some more news from up your way...

[parthenope]

Great explanation Andy,

I fully agree about your comments regarding the distribution of any given species. Even in the UK where we have good well organised recording schemes for almost every concievable group of insects, animals, & plants that have produced realitively good coverage on a national basis, the distribution maps frequently reflect recorder effort rather than actual distribution.  Plus of course recorders are often attracted to honey pot sites rather than the broader countryside.

It would be great if the records that appear here on the forum could feed into Iberian recording schemes as I know for example that we have had dragonfly records on here that are outside of published ranges.

Regards
Steve
  

[JohnS]

Moving some sacks of manure given to me by my local stable and found this little(!) blighter lurking underneath. The sacks had only been there a couple of weeks and not totally sure whether she(?) came with them or adopted their cover for her nest. I've seen something similar dead at the bottom of the pool in the past, but this is the first live and identifiable one. I have a couple of other shots with her "rearing up" and showing what looks like a rust-coloured "face" (or maybe my imagination). I didn't get close enough to check whether it does actually hiss when annoyed.

[Clive]

Well...

http://www.wildsideholidays.com/natural/insects-and-creepy-crawlies/91-spiders-etc/71-andalucian-funnel-web-spider.html

Looks like you got these cute spiders up you way... Wonder how they got there? Any golf courses nearby with transplanted olive or palm trees in... These spiders very often get transported with plants from the south....

[andyj]

well done John. Part one of the investigation over. part 2 is to begin: Are they native to Aragon or as Clive queries, imported via some means.

We have a population of stag beetles in Stafford (normally a strongly southern species in the UK) which, upon some Magnum PI style detective work (only without the farrari but with an Astra 1.4 with broken hreadlamp and busted front passenger seat) found out that they came from a plum tree transplanted from a garden in London by a builder who was doing a job down there. Instead of dumping the tree in the skip he thought he would save it and brought the tree home to stafford and put it in his garden. Hey presto and before you can say "Moustache" - we have a small but nice colony of stag beetles buzzing around some gardens in the middle Stafford.

Andy

[Rickyjose]

There is interestingely a citation of this species (4 specimens) in northern Italy: Arthropoda Selecta (vol. 17 (1-2)): New record for the Italian spider fauna (Arachnida, Araneae), P. Pantini y Marco Isaia.
I think it could be possible that this species is capable to survive at least a certain period in new habitats once they may have been transported accidently by means of plants or other garden material (just a hypothesis, however).

Best,

Thomas

[argyrodes]

Hi to you all at Iberianatureforum

Following my last post back in Feb, one of my friends knowing that I had an interest in big black hairy spiders found tonight in the loo on his farm a big black spider and resisted the temptation to squash it so brought it to me! So I finally have pictures of this spider. It was found in the loo of a ground floor mill house near a river.

I would like to post the pictures but I guess I have not posted enough times on the forum to be able to post pictures??

Please let me know how I can post the pictures.

[indalo]

Hello, it must be considered that Natural distribution of this species is finely studied.

http://www.euskomedia.org/PDFAnlt/munibe/2005155161.pdf  + more studies.

Obviously always can be surprises that turn down all hypothesis about the origin of this family and its global distribution, but also must be considered that they travel on the roots of removed plants (olives + quercus) exported from the origin areas to other points. If weather+food+soil conditions are fine, the animals can live for a time, but nearly always (that I know) populations can´t develop because of cold weather, mainly. In the situation that for a determined geographic point this population can grow and consolidate along the years, we were then, not talking about natural populations distribution, but from invasive populations of this species for a determined area.

We have not a picture here, only is commented an attitude of the bug (legs up in self-defence).

There might be also considered other species of big-blacks as Atypus affinis, that is present in all the peninsula, or Pachylomerus aedificatorius (South Iberia) + others.

It´s only my idea.

Please... any picture is possible?.


Jesús Contreras
Member of the Arachnology Iberian Group (GIA)
Almería

[indalo]

More info at http://www.sea-entomologia.org/PDF/RIA_1/R01-010-057.pdf

[Rickyjose]

Hi Argyrodes,

I believe that the threshold is not too high - 3 posts and you should be able to post pictures if I remember it correctly. However, one of the admins or senior members will be able to tell you with more certainty.

Best,

Thomas 

[andyj]

with regard to funnel-webs not being able to sustain a population in Aragon due to weather (tempreature?)...you might find it interesting to note that we now have xylocopa (carpenter bee) breeding in the UK....makes you think

andy

[Clive]

The image is there in the original post..... Definately an "Araña negra de los Alcornocales"

[argyrodes]

The spider I had was almost identical to the picture from JohnS except that it does not have the elongated spinnerets, this spider has what looks to be four spinnerets further under the abdomen. When I opened the lid of the box the spider flipped up side down I guess as a defence mechanism and I saw that there are four yellow squarish spots two on ether side of the abdomen close to the cephalothorax, which I guess, are its lungs? I have taken photos with a coin but if you view the photos without any scale the spider is exactly like its bigger tarantula cousins.

[argyrodes]

Here is the first pic of the spider in question. Please can someone tel me what it is? Thanks

PS the spider was returned to the area where it was found but a little way down the river bank as my friend was not too keen to see it again.

[argyrodes]

Number 2

[argyrodes]

Number3