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Yellowstone Park may have lessons for Spain

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Offline SueMac

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« on: August 02, 2007, 12:44 PM »
Hi there
Some of you have alluded to my liking for RADIO 4 and World RADIO -!! However when some we know never go bed or at least dont appear to be the late hour of their posts, some of us lie in bed and listen to stories like this:

Apparently the wolves were eliminated from Yellowstone Park in the 70s for all sorts of explanations similar to some of the ones being rehearsed here.  This time it was to protect the elk.  However because the balance of nature was changed many things happened because the elk could munch their way through the bottoms of the valleys etc. For reasons I cant quite remember they were reintroduced into the park in the '90s.  The impact on the park has consequently been dramatic.  Many of the trees which had been decimated by the elk such as aspens have returned, from which flows a series of restorations of wild fauna and flora, ponds insects, birds. Something about looking before leaping?
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline steveT

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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2007, 17:59 PM »
SueMac,

If I remember correctly the main rational for wolf reintroduction was to reap the environmental benefits a natural top predator brings.....directly through healthier prey species and then the correct flora balance that results from heribvore numbers being check natually. There were other reasons too .... but this were secondary eg increased tourism due to the presence of wolves and it was felt that the park was not complete without its full assemblage of animals. The wolf reintroduction clearly has done what it set out to do.

Interestingly ( I remember reading this I'm sure ) during the programme one or two Canadian wolves got there on there own .... independently....covering similar distances to the wollves that have recently arrived in the Pyreenes from the Alps.

steveT
 

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 22:55 PM »
Greetings All,
One of the most important things I've realised over the many years I've been an adept of what they now call Lifelong Learning is that countries, i.e politicians, are loath to learn from the positive experiences of other countries, only adopting those measures from abroad which in some way curtail human rights, development etc. such as zero tolerance (for petty criminals - not for corrupt politicians or their close circle of advisers) or free market (privatisation of education, social services, utilities, and so on). And this is of course patent also in environmental issues, the argument being that we are the ones who best know how to manage our own resources, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum.

My opinion of the intellectual capacity of politicians is well-known on this 'ere iberianatureforum and unfortunately it's up to them to implement most kinds of programmes, be they educational, environmental or economic, etc. You name it, they'll blow it.  :banghead: History, both contemporary and historical, is full of best practices in just about every field of human action, both positive and negative, and we're destined to repeat the same old mistakes, intentionally (through corruption) or otherwise (through incompetence).

I know it’s a bit negative, but the following rhetorical question "Do you even think they'll think" just ‘bout sums it up.

When All The Laughter Dies In Sorrow

When all the laughter dies in sorrow
And the tears have risen to a flood
When all the wars have found a cause
In human wisdom and in blood
Do you think they'll cry in sadness
Do you think the eye will blink
Do you think they'll curse the madness
Do you even think they'll think

When all the great galactic systems
Sigh to a frozen halt in space
Do you think there will be some remnant
Of beauty of the human race
Do you think there will be a vestige
Or a sniffle or a cosmic tear
Do you think a greater thinking thing
Will give a damn that man was here
Kendrew Lascelles

From a spoken track – no musical accompaniment – on the Chicago III double album (recorded late 1970 – released Jan. 1971 - from the band’s early, ballsier and politically-charged period (ecologically-aware, anti-Vietnam, anti-capitalism, etc., rather than their later, smoochy ballad-based big hits period).

In other words, Lisa's internal iberianatureforum link effectively puts paid to any possible ecologically/environmentally-friendly solution to the matter.

Melancholic regs.
Technopat

Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2007, 23:31 PM »
Dear Steve and TP
I am sure all that is right - I did see a prog on Canadian wolves and Yellowstone. I remember the guy saying that they  actually need to reintroduce the element of fear - your natural predator - to change behaviours.
TP dont be so melancholy - they made a mistake and theyat least have put it right.  As I sit here I can here our fox barking away again.  He will come up to swimming pool and leave his calling card at some stage. Actually there are two call ing to each other. I dont understand why it is going on night after night. Our dogs dont know what to make of it all.
And just over 35 minutes ago we saw a mountain cat. I think he had come down to a pool of water (a natural spring I think) down behind one of the protective dams in the rambla.  There is so little water around.  Land has really burnt up. If the experts were right they only live above 1000 meters - this is 300m.  Rabbits eating prickly pear now.  The stars are still out there albeit they fall from the heaven. We can only keep doing our bit  and loving the privilege of seeing these marvels.
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2007, 00:06 AM »
Greetings SueMac,
Thanx for your soothing words (shall ignore ref. to burnt-up land), I think it was reading Roxanne's comment earlier - re. wanting to be able to know that there are still bears around when she's older - that did it.
Re. being able to put it right - that's great when they can ...
Regs.
Technopat
Ps.
Re. Falling stars - surely they're only falling out of our sight - or has there been a concerted effort all these years to pull my leg ands it turns out the world really is flat?
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline nick

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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2007, 02:57 AM »
Some thoughts

I remember hearing that hunters in Yellowstone complaining after the reintroduction of wolves that it was much harder to hunt elks. Not because there were less of them but because they spent more time hiding out rivines. They were warier. They were more on the lookout.

This has always struck me in the Sierra de la Culebra and I always rabbit on about this when I'm with there with people. It's much harder to see a red deer here than in much of Northern Europe not because of numbers but because here red deer are very arware of what's around them. You can see the way they walk that they're wary. Quite simply seeing a prey species in an area with wolves has more value than seeing one where there are no wolves, even if they are much further away. And hunters should be happy. Red deer in the Sierra de la Culebra are the biggest in "regimen abierta" in Spain, because the weak are preyed upon by wolves.

Nick
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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2007, 07:38 AM »
Sorry correction to my late piece  of last night- we live at 700 meters +. Equally TP this is deep southern Spain for Darwin's sake!  In July and August it is always very hot.  It is akin to Africa.   
It is the other side of the coin to gold courses...
SueMac
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Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 00:10 AM »
Greetings all,
More mindless stats.:
Just came across a reference to Yellowstone Grizzlies eating 40,000 moths a day during August:
Yellowstone Grizzly Bears Eat 40,000 Moths a Day In August
http://www.yellowstonepark.com/MoreToKnow/ShowNewsDetails.aspx?newsid=163

Y'all know my lack of faith in experts' so-called scientific methods aka extrapolating  :technodevil:

Does anyone know if the Yanks use "moths" as a general term to include butterflies and other bugs? Are bears so discriminating ie fussy 'bout what they eat? How many kilos is 40,000 moths?

Mind-boggling regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lucy

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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 09:28 AM »
Maybe moths are tastier than we think.  My cat generally spits out insects after catching them, but the small moths he hunts in the kitchen (that appear in the cupboards every summer) he munches with relish.

Offline lisa

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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 15:34 PM »
Mine prefer chutney  :)
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