Iberianature Forum

Iberian geography, history, geology, environment and climate => Have You Signed The No More Golf Courses Petition...? => Topic started by: Clive on May 16, 2007, 23:05 PM

Title: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on May 16, 2007, 23:05 PM
Hola,

Well Chris Stewart is lending his weight to the cause...

http://theolivepress.es/content/view/489/42/

Please take a look at the Google ads on the side bar...Desert springs golf course in Almeria was up there when i looked at the article. I find it a bit odd to read about natures destruction whilst at the same time being sold "the dream"

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on May 16, 2007, 23:20 PM
Greetings Clive and All,
Thanx for that link - interesting read.

Re: ads - Welcome to the world of big business >:D

While we're on the environmental issues thread, the same issue of The Olive Press has another humdinger on illegal substances:
http://theolivepress.es/content/view/485/42/ (http://theolivepress.es/content/view/485/42/)

Trouble is, these guys always get out on bail - I wonder whether the money comes from - his party funds or from under his mattress. :-X

Disgusted regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on May 17, 2007, 07:41 AM
Good for him.

From the BBC last weekend http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6647443.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6647443.stm)

"Now expats who live in Spain are entering the choppy waters of local politics en masse.

In the run-up to the 27 May elections, a number of local parties are dominated by expats and more than 300,000 European residents in Spain have registered to cast their ballots.

This could be the beginning of something of an expat political revolution."

Hope they're "green"  :-\

Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on May 17, 2007, 11:53 AM
Greetings All,
In answer to Lisa's  :-\, my own informal, ongoing poll (i.e. not just in the run-up to these elections), suggests that whatever the true colour (red, blue or white green) of the sizeable expat community, most of them do have a strong dislike of the Ib. Pen.'s gold courses - and by extension, the criminal construction industry - and are much more aware of such mind-boggling-ness when living abroad than possibly they would have been back 'ome. Which in turn leads them to vote for options they might otherwise not consider. This phenomenon already exists among Spaniards, i.e. some/many will vote for one party in the locals and for another in the autonómicas and/or general.
Whether greater awareness is something that leads to action, is of course a matter for another type of forum.
While on the subject: one man, sorry, person, one vote in cases such as the expat vote is more than relative, of course - the value of my vote here in the capital is insignificant in comparison to that of expats living in smaller, rural areas who can have more of a say in what goes down in their (your) neck of the woods. In real life, of course, the local thug building contractor plays the game whichever way he chooses, but at least ... :-\ :-\

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on May 20, 2007, 23:23 PM
Greetings All,
Was going to start new thread for Gold/Golf courses in Spain, but this one that Clive started is as good a place as any for tonight's rant.

What follows is the result of a desperate need I came across this weekend when I discovered, as on so many other occasions in the past, that my debating skills were/are seriously flawed when arguing with the indigenous folk - have never been able to perfect that table-thumping movement they all learn at the mother's knee. Although the old 12-bore (sawn-off?) on the table in front of me would possibly be more effective, Mrs Technopat would certainly look askance at me if I were to introduce it as a point d'appui sorry, punto de apoyo.

We iberianature forumers have over the past few months touched upon the ecologically incorrect issue of the over-construction of gold courses in this country - surprisingly enough, very often in regions of the country where water is, or soon will be, a seriously-threatened resource - but nowhere have we broached the matter from a formally analytical viewpoint, as we have done with hunting and evolution, for instance.  And I, for one, need the moral support and/or thoughtful feedback from an ongoing thread on this issue, to which I offer myself, as always, to take up residence as the Devil's Avocado  >:D.

I think I mentioned elsewhere the possible construction of a gold course in "my" village. This weekend I was told that it had definitely been approved - funnily enough, just before the elections  :-X - and that land movement was now under way for the houses that will look out over the lush greens (province of Toledo - that dry-looking bit to the southwest of Madrid that you see in the satellite shot). I subsequently wasted almost 2 hours of my valuable time trying to make the family who live there, comprising 15 adults, with more kids as fascinated onlookers ('cos the guiri hardly ever gets involved in the habitual arguments at sobremesa which tend to be of a footballish nature and/or criticising immigrants), see the inconveniences of the whole scheme. While all you iberianature lovers were out there enjoying nature and smelling the lurid coloured whatchamacall 'ems and trying to avoid stepping on wolf/badger scats and/or cowpats, muggins 'ere was at the receiving end of yet another humiliating defeat.

I raised the ecological aspects, fundamentally water-based, (my father-in-law waters his lawn twice a day during summer  >:(>:( and won't listen to reason (have in the past toyed with the idea of sabotaging the timer, but whenever he decides to use the hose, he wastes even more water), but also including the additional traffic-related problems (they all complain 'bout the ever increasing amount of cars here). Mentioned that gold courses were typical promoters' scams to get free or cheap land out of local cash-stricken councils, using the typical modern-day charlatan's carrot of new jobs. However, I wasn't even able to sew the tiniest seeds of doubt in their minds. They just don't see any drawbacks whatsoever. Least of all ecological:
Them: "That's why they've chosen a place near the river."
Me: "Don't you remember the water restrictions a couple of summers back - river reduced to a trickle?"
Them: " 'Politics' - the neighbouring council has more sway with the water federation".

All they can see is more jobs, more revenue from taxes, and great publicity for the village (TV coverage for the Escalona Open? Golf venue for the Madrid 2016 Olympics?). It's almost as if they really believe it will directly and magically benefit them  ???, even though they personally are not involved in any way in any aspect of the thing (i.e., I could understand their interest if they were after the concession for whatever).

The bottom line is: what arguments can I use to create the need for they themselves to oppose this ludicrousness - to make them realise the need to take action?

I realise that all this might appear to verge on the NIMBYish, but even though I don't actually live there, I'm seriously worried 'bout the overall consequences of the thing.

Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
It's just occurred to me that if the gold course goes ahead, it would stir up quite a hornet's nest if I could get the local yobbos (today's generation rides quads) to go rallying on the greens at night. Nabbing 2 birds with 1 stone? 8)

Pps.
The above occurrence lends a new perspective to Clive's title for this thread ;D
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on June 29, 2007, 13:28 PM
Right folks,

Time for the 'Shroomey Squad to get off its laurels. I'd like to be able to hand over the baton as Squad Leader at the end of the year with at least one constructive and effective action carried out and a pro-active action plan approved for the following year.  8)

Am fully aware that, in comparison with more serious issues dealt with on other iberianatureforum boards, such as hunting, the gold course issue has low priority, but I reckon it's one which we can get to grips with in our modest way and lobby English-speaking visitors to the forum. Our Great and Wise Adminstrators have the mindless (mind-blowin' ?) stats. and I'm sure that loads of people (non-iberianatureforumers) outside of Spain are clicking in to check things out before coming over in hordes to get roasted on the beaches and/or gold courses.

So it's up to us to make sure that the simple, easy-to-understand message gets across to them that Spain, due to its unique geographical position is in no position to absorb the 318 gold courses projected (200 of them in Andalusia alone!)

Greenpeace presented their report yesterday (here's the press release (http://www.greenpeace.org/espana/news/greenpeace-denuncia-que-los-ay) - which has an internal link to the actual report).

Feedback, anyone?

I was thinking along the lines of a petition we could set up to get signatures to send to the EU or wherever - The Olive Press, etc. (even to the national press - both in Spain & the UK).

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on June 29, 2007, 14:56 PM
Petition...that rings a bell  :lighttbulb:
Technopat, if you're serious (which I think you are) getting a petition started is the easy bit, it's getting people to sign it that can be frustrating  :banghead:
Don't forget that if Spain continues with it's wanton will to cover the country with greens and bunkers there'd be no room left for hunting apart from maybe the odd mole - and then that would be poisoned.
Presumably Greenpeace Spain will keep this at a national level, so an international petition with an accompanying letter could be sent to the EU environment minister aswell as the Spanish.
Here you go - The Petition Site (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on July 15, 2007, 22:12 PM
Greetings All,
Lisa, thanx for your feedback on that one. You are indirectly responsible for the following musings (i.e. my Muse :) ) on how to get more people to sign petitions - but don't worry, I'll take the full blame for it when our Great and Wise Administrators freak out. It's part 'n' parcel of the Technopat macho image. :dancing:

OK. When logging on earlier this afternoon/evening - a long time ago - and before getting side-tracked by one of Nick's famous iberianature forum tangents  (http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,517.0.html), I had intented to post the following ramble for your consideration and feedback. It's probably my longest posting to date so apologies in advance.

Haven’t had time to give it as much thought as it warrants, but as t. is of the essence, and a couple of weeks have already gone by since Greenpeace released their report, I reckon getting something off the ground as soon as p. and benefitting from the combined intelligences/creativeness of the iberianatureforumers - and simply ironing out the little wrinkles as we go along - is better than wasting time mulling things over trying to foresee all the hiccoughs that might crop up over time.

The issue at stake, the ludicrous number of existing number of golf courses and the equally ludicrous number planned, while not being as headline-grabbing as some other, more critical nature-threatening issues, such as being down to the last-breeding-pair-of-whatever-endangered species is still hanging on for dear life, is sufficiently asinine and unnecessary to warrant at least a tentative attempt to rationalise things. And as nature is being degraded on so many fronts, any little thing we, here at the iberianatureforum, can do in any area, be it ever so humble, can only help to raise awareness among those who are willing to become aware of what goes on around them.

Some of us have on occasions tried to relativise the importance of certain nature-related issues, finding it hard to get het up ‘bout what others might be worried stiff about, so I think that maybe we could start a specific board for proposed petitions to go under the iberianatureforum banner. The idea is that any thread started under said board, and which after the corresponding debate among iberianatureforumers, attracts a certain number of votes in the internal poll, for instance 20% of registered iberianatureforumers, within 10 days of first being proposed, gets to become an official iberianatureforum petition.

That said, I am quite willing to accept that the iberianatureforum actually serves other purposes than that of a lobby, and is just that, a forum devoted to nature-related issues, and it should therefore be up to individual members to do what they like elsewhere. But I reckon the added value of the credibility of the iberianatureforum will, in time, be able to move mountains. Not that it would occur to any of us iberianatureforumers to do such an un-ecological barbaridad (En. anyone?), given the general abhorrence we have for bulldozers here.

The general idea is that we can make things happen on a global level by doing our bit at a local level. And obviously getting such a petition going needs someone less inclined to waffle and with a capacity to put things more succinctly and concisely than I (not excluding anyone, just thinking here in terms of Dave, SueMac or Lisa at NCO level and/or Clive at powers-that-b. level as they are the ones who usually post short, to-the-point messages).

The following is a draft proposal for your consideration:

Re: golf courses in Spain.

So, what’s the big deal? Apart from the general ongoing debate on climate change and global warming, the matter is that the Iberian Peninsula, that is, Spain, and to a lesser extent, Portugal, is undergoing a severe process of desertification (check source **: UN .......). Yet thanks to their being choice tourist destinations (50 million visitors to Spain in 2006 – check source **: .........) AND, in the case of Spain now being the “market garden of Europe” (check EU source **) they have the highest consumption of water per head (250 litres/person Spain, and ........, Portugal – check source **).

Obviously such absurdly high rates of use of drinking water cannot be sustained for much longer, and Spain is now entering its 3rd successive year of officially declared drought, with many villages in Andalusia, precisely the region most affected by desertification, having water rationing for much of the day during summer - while nearby hotels catering for foreign tourists face no such rationing (check source **: ........). While everyone seems to fret ‘bout quantity of water, personally, I’m much more worried ‘bout quality. Water doesn’t magically disappear – it just goes elsewhere. But it does get dirtier. Dirtier as in more contaminated with non-biodegradable fertilisers and pesticides and the like.

Fruit and vegetables, fine (we won’t go into the amounts of pesticides, etc. used). Tourists and hotels, great. Jobs, albeit seasonal, and profits for the primary and tertiary sectors. As short-term solutions, all very good for the economy. Probably not so good for the ecology. So what combines watering with tourists? Hey, yeah! Golf courses! Spain has now become one of the, if not the top destinations for golf tourism, with some XX golf courses now operating, and according to figures published this week, some ..... more planned over the coming years (check source **:.....). Spain has suddenly become the country with the highest number of golf courses per capita in the world (check source **: ......). In a country where people are not in the least bit interested in the game itself. The market is almost exclusively aimed at foreign visitors. Who come, having paid their money up-front to a firm registered out of the country, spend very little cash here, leave behind a carbon and other, even more visible, traces, oblivious to the reality of the state of the country’s critical water situation.

One of the arguments people use to defend the abundance of greens is that the golf courses have to drill their own wells and supplying themselves with water. As if that there the solution. It might be all very well and good in a country with abundant supplies, but as we have seen, Spain now has serious problems in this regard. Trouble is, of course, that each well using up water for keeping the greens green, means less water available for other uses. So villages that feel threatened by future, nearby golf courses are taking to the streets to demand that their local authorities deny planning permission to the promoters. But local authorities in Spain are so desperate to attract any source of income that they will accept any proposal that anyone is willing to put before them. Hence the excessive number of houses being built (check source **: .........) and the exaggerated number of golf courses projected. Conventional economic wisdom tells us what happens when there is an excessive supply for a limited demand.

Golf is a wonderful game, but apart from any of the ecological matters raised above, playing 18 holes under the blistering Spanish sun (average temperature in July and August: ....... ºC/ ........ºF) is definitely not going to improve anyone’s handicap. And as anyone with a lawn in the UK during the droughts of the 70s/80s (check source **:) will surely remember, there’s an awful lot of water at stake.

The issue is being treated mainly as a local matter, but given its real extent, and the fact that the target group are British golfers, at iberianatureforum we believe it should be treated at national, British and European levels, with the punters themselves choosing destinations in this country other than golf resorts. Iberianatureforum has therefore decided that they would like to do their bit to help the campaign being carried out locally to stop the construction of such a ludicrous amount of golf courses in Spain and appeals to like-minded persons of all nationalities to sign the petition we have set up at The Petition Site. Thank you.

Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
Jeez! It is long (page 'n' a half of Word)! Hope the server can take it!
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on July 15, 2007, 23:29 PM
it's getting a bit late, I'll read it again and take it in better in the morning but shall I start the petition if you can précis wot you wrote?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on July 15, 2007, 23:47 PM
Greetings Lisa,
That was the précis.  :dancing:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on July 16, 2007, 10:56 AM
Right. As a start I propose;

Technopat's words (revised with ref's added) as a separate topic fixed or locked or whatever it's called on this board.

A petition (that I can create) with a link in the content to iberianatureforum's said topic for more info.

Petition to be authored/sponsored by iberianatureforum members??

Target - EU Ministry of the Environment??

Not me to promote the petition as I don't want it to detract from mine if you see what I mean. I can provide a list of forums to stick it on. (Did quite a few and this is the only one that I'm faithful to, honest  :sign:

I've had a quick search for a photo to put at the head but don't have much time, thought maybe a google earth pic of part of the coast or a pic of a golf course possibly with dry background!

What does everyone think?


Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on July 16, 2007, 13:21 PM
Greetings Lisa,
First of all: Thanx for going through it all - def. over and above what is expected of every English person and those of other nationalities, beliefs and what-have-you.  :dancing:
Agree with each and every one of your proposals. But I'm completely out of my depth here (and though it doesn't quite fit in with the context, it's such a great expression: and up the creek without a paddle (Sp. anyone?).
Hope there's some more feedback on this - with constructive criticism  :technodevil:

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on July 16, 2007, 23:43 PM
I'm wondering whether the authors of the petition should be named or "the members of iberianatureforum" as a group?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on July 16, 2007, 23:53 PM
Greetings Lisa and All,
I personally favour the collective as opposed to the individual. Has that carefully-thought-out, must-have-been-debated and not-on-the-spur-of-the-moment-whim ring to it.
But then again, my opinion is biased, so over to "the members of iberianatureforum"  8)
Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on July 27, 2007, 18:31 PM
Greetings all,

Sorry to have been out of the loop on this one - I came to the post late and have been catching up. This takes time with old-uns like me.

I'm all for petitions and will def.sign up as and when. But I also think direct, personal action has a place (I really like you suggestion about the quads TP - there's got to be some use for them! I also have a rather personal anecdote about a certain motorbike and sidecar and the preseves of the privilidged classes, but that had better remain offline!!!) Meanwhile, I have a few ideas to feed an article for the Britabroad press, outlining some of the environmental issues of overdevelopment, including gokld courses, and linking it to the potentioal meltdown of the Spanish property market (see BBVA report on prices out this week - I've just tried to find the link on Google but failed, that's probabaly my fault!).

Must dash now - got an appointment at the hairdresser, luvvies!

Ciao

Simon
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on July 28, 2007, 23:51 PM
Director - Technopat.

Promoter - Lisa.

Author - Simon.


 :sign:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 02, 2007, 13:12 PM
Greetings Lisa, Simon and All,
Maybe the following is the BBVA report you were looking for (not got time right now to check it out myself - huge backlog of iberianatureforum posts/postings work to catch up with).
http://serviciodeestudios.bbva.com/TLBB/fbin/SIES_0707_SituacionInmobiliaria_22_eng_tcm208-100125.pdf (http://serviciodeestudios.bbva.com/TLBB/fbin/SIES_0707_SituacionInmobiliaria_22_eng_tcm208-100125.pdf)

which is available along with other (English-language) BBVA studies at http://serviciodeestudios.bbva.com/TLBB/tlbb/jsp/sve/europa/espana/pubsect/siinm/index.jsp (http://serviciodeestudios.bbva.com/TLBB/tlbb/jsp/sve/europa/espana/pubsect/siinm/index.jsp)

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 03, 2007, 19:36 PM
Greetings All,
Hot off The Olive Press:
This is the kind of thing we're up against here  (http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/08/02/developer-more-important-than-public-interest-says-judge/) - and y'all think I'm paranoid. Correct me if I'm wrong, those of you who've been here for a while, but I think only one judge has been impeached and another two indicted in Spain (one of 'em recently in Marbella) since Franco died. Not sure how that compares with other countries (though as a mindless stat., I reckon it stinks), but it hardly matters.
Gold courses, along with pseudo-luxury developments, are symptomatic of a general trend which takes the odd bear or wolf or lynx or home here and there in its stride, or at best, as an occupational hazard.
Angry regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 04, 2007, 06:07 AM
Hi Techno and all,

This doesn't surprise me at all!

Yours saddened, Simon  :(
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 04, 2007, 09:01 AM
".... decision could always be reversed." Yeah, really.

(Warning petition on it's way...)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: nick on August 04, 2007, 10:23 AM
Photographer Ricardo Casas has this series of photos on "Rustic golf". http://www.ricardocases.es/ and follow the link
 

I came across him yesterday and posted this.
http://www.iberianature.com/spainblog/2007/08/03/hunting-the-frozen-wolf/
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 06, 2007, 19:25 PM
Greetings All,
Do NOT - repeat - do NOT follow Lisa's link on this thread - Darwin knows what you'll have appearing on your screen  :speechless:. All I can say is that it has nothing at **** all to do with golf courses! You have been warned!

B. that as it m., and following Lisa's far from subtle suggestions that my proposed petition be scaled down somewhat - even tho' the draft I posted originally was in fact the précised version - I have now managed to re-edit it for the consideration of iberianatureforumers (tho' there are still a couple of loose ends in there, please add to it of your plenty - all suggestions welcome):

Petition to be sent to EU Commissioner, Spain’s Minister for the Environment, Presidents of Spain’s 17 Autonomous Communities and the UK press (and any other)

11 reasons for signing this petition

1. Spain is one of the European countries most seriously affected by desertization. (31,49% of Spain faces high to very high risk (source: Spain’s Ministry of the Environment - http://www.mma.es/images/general/biodiversidad/desertificacion/que_es_desertificacion/riesgo.gif (http://www.mma.es/images/general/biodiversidad/desertificacion/que_es_desertificacion/riesgo.gif) and http://www.programaagua.com/secciones/medios_comunicacion/prensa/notas_pre/2005/04/pdf/Desertificacion2005nota.pdf (http://www.programaagua.com/secciones/medios_comunicacion/prensa/notas_pre/2005/04/pdf/Desertificacion2005nota.pdf)).)

2. It already has one of the highest rates of water consumption per head. The third highest in the world. (source: Institute of Business Technology of the Balearic Islands - http://www.idi.es/ (http://www.idi.es/))

3. Spain is now entering its 3rd successive year of officially declared drought, with many villages in Andalusia, especially, having water rationing during summer - while nearby hotels catering for foreign tourists face no such rationing (source: ¡Error!Marcador no definido.  ).

4. Spain already has 341 golf courses (Source: Real Federación Española de Golf - http://www.golfspainfederacion.com/ (http://www.golfspainfederacion.com/)) with local authority authorisation for another 320-odd approved. (source Greenpeace - http://www.greenpeace.org/espana/ (http://www.greenpeace.org/espana/))

5. Andalusia, the driest region of the country, is the region with most golf courses (96, with another 316 projected) with some areas, such as Malaga, having up to 46 golf courses. (Source: Real Federación Española de Golf).

6. Business for golf (a game not played extensively in Spain) is aimed at mainly UK golfers coming over for a few days’ golf at an all-inclusive complex, pre-paid in the UK, resulting in very little money being re-invested in the local community.

7. Many villages routinely demonstrate against existing or projected golf courses in their vecinity, as they have enforced water rationing during much of the day in summer, whereas the golf courses have their own wells which are, of course, drying the aquifers that supply the neighbouring regions (see point 3, above).

8. Many licences are being given by cash-struck local councils, either in exchange for back-handers or the carrot-stick of jobs – as of August 2007, 18 mayors have been jailed for illegally giving planning permission for golf courses and housing developments.

9. Golf courses make sense in areas with abundant annual rainfall. As anyone with a lawn to look after during the UK droughts of XX will remember, it takes an awful amount of water to care for a green, never mind 18 of ‘em!

10. As many visitors to Spain in summer can testify, playing golf in blazing sunshine and average temperatures reaching upwards of 40ºC between 11 a.m and 6 p.m. (source: http://www.iberianature.com (http://www.iberianature.com)) is hardly likely to improve anyone’s handicap.

11. Spain is a wonderful country to visit and enjoy. It has an unparalleled variety in landscape, gastronomy and leisure activities. Let’s all try to help make sure this lasts for many more years.

Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 06, 2007, 20:35 PM
Well done Technopat. There's a slight delay in getting the petition off the ground while I recover from a trapped nerve (comments only if they're funny  :poketongue:)
The link is where the petition is going to originate from unless you can find a better one.  :noidea:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 06, 2007, 20:45 PM
Greetings Lisa,
Not quite clear re. your cryptic last:
a) is a trapped nerve something to hand out sympathy for or is it funny in itself, as in "Does it hurt? - Only when I laugh"? If the former, you have my sympathy and hope you get well soon - we need you fighting fit here at iberianatureforum, although I'm sure SueMac and Jill and All can hold the fort while you're out of action  :technodevil:, if the latter, don't laugh!;
b) really don't get what you mean by
Quote
The link is where the petition is going to originate from unless you can find a better one.
- the heat down here makes it difficult to think straight.

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 07, 2007, 17:01 PM
Have managed to limp down to the computer, pain v. real.

TP, I know the petition site has changed and become a little twee but it's just a means to an end. Was it really frightening
 ???
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 07, 2007, 21:38 PM
Greetings Lisa,
Sorry to hear pain v. real - had been intending to make comment such as "someone been getting on yer nerves, then" and the like, but I'll leave 'em for another day  :technodevil:

Re. your cryptic last and the missing link:
My warning to all iberianatureforumers still holds:
Quote
Ricardo Casas has this series of photos on "Rustic golf". http://www.ricardocases.es/ and follow the link

Not intentionally trying to be nuisance in such trying moments, but when you get over the nerves, could you please try to clarfiy? Thanx!

Get better!
Technopat

Ps
Homeopathic remedy for all sorts of muscular etc. injuries, sprains, bruises, etc. as used by top athletes (strongest thing they can use without going positive): Traumeel in tablet form or as lotion
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 07, 2007, 22:10 PM
Thank Darwin for that, mystery solved. Link not mine  :dancing:

Thanks for the medical tip.

P.S. Temp. down to about 20 degrees in the Picos today  >:D
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 07, 2007, 22:15 PM
P.P.S. Am now going back to loll in my bed.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 08, 2007, 09:24 AM
Hi Techno, Lisa and other warriors,

I’ve finally managed to devote a day to the gold course issue and I’m sending a précis of my article on the subject to a number of editors. The final outcome may be very different as all journals have their own house style, word limit, as I’m sure y’all know!

Just a few notes and queries:

Reply # 21 – draft petition
a) Point 1., in your draft petition may I suggest you change ‘desertization’ to ‘desertification’, which is more commonly used.
b) Point 8. , could you give me a reference for these statistics?
c) Point 9., I’d like to calculate some mind boggling ststistic to highlight this issue, like ‘Spains’ gold courses use as much water as the Isle of Wight. So, does anyone know how many l/m2 of watering a lawn needs and how much green there is in the average gold course?

Reply # 17
Can you give me a reference for the number of judges that have been impeached, and qualify that with some sort of global average?

Many replies refer to the petition itself, e.g. # 24, but I can’t seem to see any link to the petition in the posts that I’ve been reviewing. This is probably me being dumb as usual, but could you help me, Lisa?

Thanks

Simon

PS much sympathy for you Lisa, from bitter personal experience! If it looks like becoming a chronic problem, try acupuncture!
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 08, 2007, 12:37 PM
Greetings Simon and Lisa and All,
After most of the morning spent fighting with Telefónica, and while on hold, trying to do some research, have come up with the following, which rather than save everyone a lot of time, just generates more work  :booklook: - sorry, but that's the way it is - Telefónica still haven't solved the prob., thank you for asking!

Interesting articles for background info. at the following web sites:

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/797 (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/797) Matters of Scale - Planet Golf

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5272 (http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5272) Program Helps Golf Courses “Green” Their Greens

http://www.sochaczewski.com/ARTeco-golf-july2001.htm (http://www.sochaczewski.com/ARTeco-golf-july2001.htm) - THE FUTURE OF GOLF: HOW GREEN ARE YOUR GREENS?

The European Golf Association http://www.ega-golf.ch/070000/070500.asp (http://www.ega-golf.ch/070000/070500.asp) also has an interesting links page

OK – the cup must be placed at least 10 feet from the edge of the green, so simplifying the maths and calculating the area of the circumference gives us (not too sure of my basics here, but something along the lines of Area = pork pie times 10 feet squared = an area of 314 ft2 times 18 greens = an absolute minimum, carefully, nurtured area of grass per gold course consisting of 5,652ft2 (approx. 1,884 sqaure metres? - how does measure in terms of soccer pitches, which I imagine would be an easier comparison for many people? ) - which of course doesn’t include the other areas that need watering!). My maths are wonky – soy de letras – En. Anyone?

A beaut. I’ve just come across from the following industry “watchdog” well, the R&A, which is the world rules and development body and organiser of golf – based at St Andrew’s - https://www.bestcourseforgolf.org/content/library/optimising_wate is the following (bold print is mine) from a gold course in Australia:
Quote
The greens, environmentally sensitive areas of the course and areas close to
housing are watered using higher quality water, but the tees, fairways and
approaches are watered using the recycled waste water
. Using waste water in
this way has two main environmental benefits: it reduces the demand for
high quality drinking water and also reduces the amount of wastewater
being discharged into the ocean. There are also substantial cost savings:
recycled water costs £91 per 1,000 m3 compared to £343 per 1,000 m3 for
drinking standard water. The club uses about 40,000 m3 of recycled water
per year,
...
Only for the “other” areas, that is NOT counting the high quality water required for the greens!!!!!!!!!!

This compares nicely with a gold course in Denmark, quoted from the same article:

Quote
There is usually a rain deficit from April to October and therefore a need
for irrigation every 2–3 days. Around 6,000 m3 of water is used to irrigate
all greens and tees annually
, with irrigation always taking place in suitable
conditions at night to avoid losses through high daytime winds and sunlight.

By way of a more light-hearted relief in the midst of such depressing stuff – have found an alternative tactic if Dave’s moles from León can’t cope with the proliferation of gold courses – biological warfare!:

Quote
Rules of Golf 16-1a/15 Mushroom Growing on Line of Putt

Q. A mushroom is growing on a player’s line of putt. Is the player entitled to relief?

A. The player would be justified in discontinuing play and requesting the Committee to remove the mushroom. The Committee should comply.
If such an abnormal condition is a recurring problem on a course, the Committee should make a Local Rule to the effect that mushrooms on the putting green are to be treated as ground under repair.

With the aid of simple hand-made catapults (I’m sure you, too, have lived in Arcady) we could strategically place exploding bombs filled with ‘shroom spores as we casually drive past the course admiring the scenery. To the catapults, fellow iberianatureforumers!  :dancing:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 08, 2007, 17:10 PM
So pleased you're on the case Simon  :clapping:
Here are some lonks I've been working from;

From Terra, Consejos Ecológicos (http://www.terra.org/articulos/art00313.html) - "Un campo de golf necesita 2.000.000 de litros de agua por día, la cantidad equivalente de agua que necesita una población de 8.500 habitantes por día."

This from probably more reliable Ecologistas en Acción (http://www.eapv.org/ordena.terri.golf.general.htm) based on Valencian courses - "Teniendo en cuenta que la superficie de un campo de golf oscila entre las 50 y 150 hectáreas, el consumo anual de agua un campo de golf es del orden de 1 millón de metros cúbicos al año, o el equivalente de una ciudad de 12.000 habitantes. Así pues el consumo de los 20 campos de golf existentes ahora en la Comunidad Valenciana es de 20 hectómetros cúbicos anuales, o el equivalente al consumo de una ciudad de 240.000 personas. Muchas veces se ha dicho que los campos de golf consumen aguas residuales depuradas, pero eso no es siempre cierto. La alta salinidad de las aguas residuales las hace muchas veces no apta para el riego del "green", lo que obliga a mezclarlas con agua potable o agua subterránea en proporciones a veces del 50%. Otro tema a discutir sería si las aguas residuales depuradas sometidas a un tratamiento terciario para regar el campo de golf, deberían utilizarse en actividades agrícolas, de mayor beneficio social, con prioridad sobre los campos de golf."
Lots more figures in there too and also important, recycled waste water seeps back into the water table. (http://www.cababstractsplus.org/google/abstract.asp?AcNo=20043114636)

Nick's article from the BBC on desertification in Spain. (http://www.iberianature.com/material/spain_drought.htm)

And this from a British "environmentally-friendly" golf course architect. (http://www.eigca.org/articles5.php)

Finally, for now, this from eyeonspain (http://www.eyeonspain.com/news/archive-16012007.aspx) - "Figures released by the Royal Spanish Golfing Federation show there are more golf courses in Malaga than any other Spanish province. The province has 45 registered courses and also has the largest golf course in Spain at La Cala, which has 60 holes. As a region Andalucia has the most golf courses, with 90, more than double Cataluña with 39. There are now 340 registered golf courses in Spain, up 32 on last year."

And from the same source, we must be careful not to mention any courses in particular -
"Family of British Writer Accused in Golf Course War

Martin Amis' family have joined the fight against a planned golf course development in a UNESCO protected area in Andalucia, but Lord Kilmarnock, stepfather of Amis, is at the centre of a lawsuit by developers demanding 22 million Euros in damages after investors pulled out of the project following the campaign, the Daily Telegraph reported on Friday. The British peer is one of three expats being sued by the consortium behind the double golf course scheme that includes the construction of 800 houses and 3 luxury hotels on the outskirts of the Sierra de las Nieves national park, near Ronda.

Lord Kilmarnock was one of more than 100 foreign residents who signed a petition against the 100 million Euros scheme, but it is his comments to the Spanish media criticising the project on environmental grounds that brought the legal action, last year he said "The scheme is completely unsustainable, the high demand for scarce water in a period of increasing drought will inevitably degrade the environment. "The plague of buildings on green and protected land is threatening the long term interest of the region, which has become popular for green tourism." Two others, Briton, David Milnes and German, Petra Wiegmink, who publicly spoke out against the venture are also accused of slander, coercion and moral injury, the protesters have the support of Spain's Green Party
."

This is what I've written so far for the petition -

 "As concerned environmentalists and native English-speakers now resident in Spain, the members of Iberianature forum would like to raise international awareness of the Spanish government’s unwillingness to halt the rampant construction of golf courses in a country completely unsuited to the sustainability of this activity. One 18-hole golf course needs 20,000,000 litres of water daily and over 30% of Spain is in immediate danger of desertification. 340 golf courses have aready been built and another...are planned.
Please join our protest and sign this petition to be sent to the Environment Ministers of both Spain and the EU."

Apologies in advance if I've duplicated anything already mentioned elsewhere,  :-[ just in case.



Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 08, 2007, 17:15 PM
And another thing, well two actually;
Simon, guardianweekly? (http://www.guardianweekly.co.uk/)
TP, have catapults, can get spores soon but no course in sight, thank Darwin  :P
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 08, 2007, 18:13 PM
Greetings Lisa, Simon and fellow (male and female) iberianatureforumers,

Lisa's latest:
Quote
This is what I've written so far for the petition -

 "As concerned environmentalists and native English-speakers now resident in Spain, the members of Iberianature forum would like to raise international awareness of the Spanish government’s unwillingness to halt the rampant construction of golf courses in a country completely unsuited to the sustainability of this activity. One 18-hole golf course needs 20,000,000 litres of water daily and over 30% of Spain is in immediate danger of desertification. 340 golf courses have aready been built and another...are planned.
Please join our protest and sign this petition to be sent to the Environment Ministers of both Spain and the EU."

looks just what the doctor ordered! :clapping:

It succinctly sums up just 'bout everything that's been aired here. 

Just one thing, touching on the libel/slander angle of things:

Quote
the Spanish government’s unwillingness

the central gov. really has (unfortunately) very little power to do anything in these cases (as I understand it, the fiscal can only order an invstigation when there is clear proof that the law has been broken). Planning permission is a devolved competence of local and/or regional authorities and the last few years have been spent busily re-classiying land precisely so that when planning permission is finally given, no actual law has been broken. The cases now in the press are extreme ones wherein the local mayor thought him/herself to be immune from investigation/prosecution because of (treading carefully here  :technodevil:) possible connivance with local authorities of all kinds.

One of the many, real underlying problems is the legal system/judges and authorities at local level who may be in with local big business (now where have I seen that before?) In the case of Marbella, the Junta's protests were continuously rejected in the local courts - and in fact the judge who has recently been impeached was responsible for investigating planning corruption in the region and was supposedly rejecting  the Junta's protests.Ffor the CGPJ, a notoriously conservative body to suspend him, has been quite a surprise and they certainly wouldn't have done unless the case against him were really conclusive. Spain's system is one of the most garantista * in the world - if you're not a petty delinquent, that is.

Rambin' agin!

In other words, I do think some mention should also be made of the criminal activity involved in some/many/nearly all  >:D cases of the re-classification of land and subsequent construction of gold courses.

Way to go, Lisa!  :dancing:

* Not my own - El garantismo judicial, del que se benefician exclusivamente los políticos y los grandes delincuentes (¡menudos compañeros de viaje!) es el sucedáneo con apariencia democrática de la antigua figura jurídica denominada "garantía de los funcionarios públicos" from http://www.elalmanaque.com/lexico/garantista.htm (http://www.elalmanaque.com/lexico/garantista.htm)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 08, 2007, 18:19 PM
No gold course within shooting range? Must be too much rain in your part of the world. Or you don't mix with the right people, or you have the camera pointing in the wrong direction  >:D
Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 08, 2007, 20:33 PM
Greetings Simon,
Re. your request for a comparative on impeached judges, have just posted what must be iberianatureforum's longest posting to date - so long as the server holds out you can read it at the following.
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,616.0.html (http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,616.0.html)

It's not exactly what you were looking for but it helps to get a persp. on things, I hope.
Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
If there are no more postings from me over the next couple of days, it'll simply be due to the powers-that-b. have finally decided on blocking my account after formally acccusing me (unjustly) of spamming the forum - but have no fear - I have access to other ISPs and will be back under a psuedonym (I've always loved that pseudo prefix)  :dancing:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 08, 2007, 20:46 PM
Thanks TP and Lisa,

I've got all this safely downloaded. I just hope that I can do justice to all your efforts!

re GWeekly I will send stuff to the but I fear it's preachig to the converted - what I'd really like to do is get on the Angry of Tunbridge circuit, probably a cat's chance but worth the try!

I also think the Greenpace report is suitably unslanderous to quote in terms of accusing local government mogusl of incompetence/complicity, etc. so I'll stick to them unless I see specific cases.

An enormous thank-you to you both.

Si X
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 08, 2007, 20:54 PM
Thanks both, I'll make it "regional governments". Should have spotted that after discovering the good old Junta de Castilla y León's dealings. That's just the intro though, then i have to put something a bit longer. Will probably copy some of TP's for that with hopefully a link to the forum for even more info. Looking for a good pic. to illustrate - not easy.

Simon, it'll have to be the Mail and Telegraph then  ;D

May head down to Seve country with the catapults  8)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 08, 2007, 20:59 PM
Got it in one, L  :clapping:

Si X
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 08, 2007, 21:31 PM
Greetings All,
I totally agree that we have to appeal to both the converted and to the willing, so methinks that if we're going to appeal to the Mail Telgraph types we should leave out any mention of Greenpeace, however neutral, PC or whatever their report might actually be (am I being sufficiently paranoid? - it's taken me many years of training). Don't know the standing of that peer back in the LOG (but I would imagine he would be more appealing to the Grauniad readers as a quixotic character) - anyone know of him? (i.e. should he also be mentioned or left out).

Once we have the def, vers. - should we make a Sp. lang. vers. also and get our Snapish friends to sign it, or would it be self-defeating? Does the format of the petition site allow for a bilingual version. I only ask 'cos I could cope with the French petition you forwarded me to, but some friends told me they couldn't be bothered to guess their way through the instructions.

Rges.
Technopat

Ps.
The race is on to see if we can overtake the San Glorio petition before it reaches 10,000 signatures!  :dancing:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 08, 2007, 21:33 PM
Sorry - regional governments AND local councils! Important difference, 'cos there are often conflicting power struggles ...
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 09, 2007, 07:23 AM
O.K. and I agree with the Spanish translation, it's important to have Spanish signatures on it. Using the given (unchangeable) format of the petition site, I could have the English at the top and follow it with a Spanish translation.

Good job I set the limit to 5,000 on the San Glorio petition. Any thoughts anyone on the limit for this one?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 09, 2007, 10:51 AM
Hola,

Just checking on your figure of daily water use.... "20 million seems a bit too much me thinks.....

All the text needs double and triple checking, Figures need to come from reliable sources and once you have it as you want it I will sticky it somewhere prominent so visitors to the forum will see it....


Quote
"As concerned environmentalists and native English-speakers now resident in Spain, the members of Iberianature forum would like to raise international awareness of the Spanish government’s unwillingness to halt the rampant construction of golf courses in a country completely unsuited to the sustainability of this activity. One 18-hole golf course needs 20,000,000 litres of water daily and over 30% of Spain is in immediate danger of desertification. 340 golf courses have aready been built and another...are planned.
Please join our protest and sign this petition to be sent to the Environment Ministers of both Spain and the EU."

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 09, 2007, 11:15 AM
Greetings Lisa and Simon and All,

Reckon the header should announce the Spanish version right at the beginning - i.e.

Petition against construction of more gold courses - English/Español

Also reckon we can go for a higher setting on the petition counter - I know from experience that it'll be far easier for me to convince several ecologically-minded friends of mine to sign against gold courses than to protect bears  :'( - sad, but true.

Please don't misinterpret my words (I'm sure that given at least half the chance you would :technodevil:), but I reckon a petition to save an undefined number of bears in place most people have never even heard of would get fewer signatures than one for something much more patent such as the proliferation of gold courses - they're out there everywhere where everyone can but wonder at the amount of water being 'sprinkled' on 'em - whereas most people aren't too keen on the idea of meeting up with a bear in the wild - sort of prefering to see 'em at the zoo, or even at virtual nature centres/in tv documentaries! Don't forget that an amazingly high number of people don't actually like nature and wildlife  :o - but at least some of 'em can see the waste of water and damage to our ecosystem in general (or am I being overly optimistic here?)

Optimistic (temps. here in Madrid have gone down) regs. :dancing:
Technopat

Ps.
Warning! Given the over-use of stereotypes, the following comment could, under certain circumstances, be misinterpreted, but it is NOT meant to be sexist. I'm also sure that even while Dad/Hubby is out on the links, there'd probably be one or two spouses/offspring willing to sign the petition behind his back.  :technodevil:

Pps.
Just seen Clive's comment (we should put the figures as an example such as Olympic-size swimming pools/water for a town of xx inhabitants).

Ppps.
Even triple checking can miss gremlins, many classic anecdotes out there* - but that's the advantage of a concerted effort by nitpicky  :biggrin: iberianatureforumers!

* I know a professor of literature who had painstakingly (and obsessively) checked successive waves of proofs and galley proofs for his definitive text on whatever it was over and over again - and there it was: a glaring typo on the second line of the introduction by an eminence.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 09, 2007, 13:30 PM
Hola,

Litres of irrigation water could also equate to average rainfall for a region. I think most people have never seen an Olympic sized swimming pool so the relation to one is not graphic enough...

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 10, 2007, 12:02 PM
All taken on board although I'm not sure I agree about the bears - there are an awful lot of concerned wildlife activists out there but will check with you all re. the target amount of sig's. I think that there must also be a fair few environmentally concerned golfers too. Being mathematically challenged, I hadn't noticed the amount of 0's of litres so will run it all by you before posting the petition.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 11, 2007, 09:47 AM
Hola,

There is an update to the macro golf and leisure project in the Gójar and Dílar area Granada province..

http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/08/09/%e2%80%9cwe-don%e2%80%99t-want-a-millennium-dome%e2%80%9d/

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 12, 2007, 08:48 AM
Los miembros del foro de Iberianature, ecologistas preocupados por la construcción massiva de campos de golf en España, quisieramos pedir que se paren de construir aún más urbanizaciones insostenibles por la falta de recursos naturales de agua que tiene este país.

Does that sound O.K?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 12, 2007, 13:22 PM
NO MORE GOLF COURSES IN SPAIN! (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/361055706) is online.
I should be able to edit any changes if necessary.
Clive, can you make the post sticky somewhere before we start to spread the petition address around? Maybe we should all delete our posts here (well, some anyway) and perhaps we could just leave TP's reasons for signing the petition?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 12, 2007, 19:18 PM
Hola,

I have created a new board solely for the discussion of the petition and the general subject of Golf courses and the related construction projects.

I suggest someone write an introduction post for the petition site and post it in this new board.

I would leave all of the original posts in this thread and not delete any. I like the way your ideas evolved......

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 12, 2007, 22:32 PM
Thanks Clive. I propose TP writes an intro as it was his idea in the first place...but where is he??? Not swallowed up by the earthquake I hope  :o
Has anyone actually tried to sign the petition yet?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 12, 2007, 22:47 PM
Silly me, slight technical hitch on the publishing front.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/no-more-golf-courses-in-spain is now live.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 13, 2007, 07:53 AM
Hi Lisa et al,

I've just signed the petition. However I'm a bit worried about the first sentence of the text,

"As concerned environmentalists and native English-speakers now resident in Spain, the members of Iberianature forum would like to raise international awareness of the Spanish regional governments unwillingness to halt the rampant construction of golf courses in a country completely unsuited to the sustainability of this activity. Click on letter below or visit"

as this sems to exclude our non-resident members of the forum and those who are not natuive English speakers. It might also appear that the petition is only for Forum members, of who there are only 119!

Sorry to appear so not picking after your Herculean efforts of late - I also feel I've done nothig much of yet to contribute to this. So if you like I'll re-work the sentence during today to make it less ambiguous but without losing its meaning.

Regs.

Simon
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 13, 2007, 11:43 AM
Hi Lisa and fellow shroomies (just three weeks to go after the recent rainfall!!!)

Sorry to appear presumptuous, but how about the following minor revision:

"As concerned environmentalists, mostly native English-speakers now resident in Spain, members of Iberianature forum would like to raise international awareness of the Spanish regional governments unwillingness to halt the rampant construction of golf courses in a country completely unsuited to the sustainability of this activity."

Just a few little words: I've changed 'and' resident . . . for a new claise beginning with; 'mostly' resident . . . and removed 'the' members of the . . . as this otherwise implies that all members are in the petrion, which is possibly, but not necessarily, true.

Sorry again for appearing so pernickity, I've had it done to me more than once (!!!) but I think it does help.

Another point, perhaps for Clive and/or Nick: I appear as a 'moderator' on the topic heading. What I have to do in this regard? Does this mean I have some discretionary power? Power at last! It's mine, all mine, I tell you! Ha ha!

Simon X

Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 13, 2007, 12:25 PM
Hola,

Hi Simon and all,

I had a mischievous thought as I was creating the new board for the golf petition and made the "Shroomy three" moderators of the board...

It just means that you have the power in that board to edit / delete other peoples posts and a few more options such as being able to sticky posts etc...You will see the extra options when you are in the board or one of the topics...

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 01:38 AM
Greetings All,
Sorry for having been AWOL - bloody "fiestas" at the urbanización in the village - not even the **** village ones proper - still got those to suffer. Not only did I miss the stuff going on 'ere, but also the "star shower" - completely slipped my mind, but wouldn't have missed it if I'd had access to the iberianatureforum - moral in there somewhere ...
Agree with Simon's shades of meaning (Sp. anyone?) and am now off to see what all the fuss is about ...
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 02:19 AM
Greetings All,
Just signed - one or two observations:
a) how 'bout deleting that reference to ecologistas in the Sp. version - makes some people's blood boil over here (as posted elswhere on the forum, but very late at night and not going to look for it) and it would be good to get as many Spaniards signing as poss.;
b) clicking on the first link to iberianature forum (or petitioners) took me to the petition web site rather than to the iberianature forum.
Way to go, folks  :dancing: !
Regs. Technopat

Ps. Can anyone come up with a computer simulation as to how long it should take to reach the halfway mark ...? Slow and steady wins the race / the race is not always to the swiftest, etc, etc., but it would be interesting to know if we're ahead of the game or whether we need to resort to other tactics (our dirty tricks team seems to be on holiday ...)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 02:26 AM
Greetings All,
Was going to post this message on another, more relevant thread, but this one's as good as any other: what with the concatenation of circs., i.e. la lluvia de estrellas and the el terremoto AND Technopat not logging in (should be ON, but never mind) over that same period, the iberianatureforum petition re. Stop Construction of More Golf Courses is off to a great start!  :dancing:

Optimistic-and-Good-Omen regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 14, 2007, 10:27 AM
Morning All,
I've made a couple of changes to No More Golf Courses in Spain! (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/no-more-golf-courses-in-spain) What do you think? Please check my Spanish.

TP - links work O.K. for me  :noidea:
Clive, is there any chance we can have the intro in my next post at the head of page 1 as that's where people will go to first?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 14, 2007, 11:01 AM
If you've arrived here from the petition "No more golf courses in Spain!" Welcome and please browse through this topic for information, some interesting links and our reasons for starting this petition. Thankyou in advance for signing.

Bienvenidos a ellos que han llegado aquí por la página de la petición "¡No más campos de golf en España!" Esperamos que encuentren información, unas enlaces interesantes y nuestras razones por haber empezado la petición. Gracias con antelación por haberla firmado.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 11:17 AM
Greetings Lisa, Simon and All,
How 'bout something like:

Quisiéramos darle la bienvenida a iberianature forum, y a su vez, las gracias de antemano por firmar la petición "¡No más campos de golf en España!" (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/361055706) .
Esperamos que los temas y enlaces sean de su interés y que nuestros argumentos en contra de la construcción descontrolada e irracional de más campos de golf le sean de utilidad.
 :sign:


The petition page is down for the moment so I can't do the embedded link OK, done.

If you agree with my Spanish-version intro., pending a more in-depth summary over the next few days, could you link it to the petition site, please?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 14, 2007, 11:52 AM
Hola shroomy squad

Once the petition site is back up and you are happy with the text you need to write the introduction post in a new topic in this board and name it "sign the the petition" or something like that.

there should be a link from there to the petition site and a link from the petition site to the introduction topic.

In the introduction topic you can link to this topic so people can read about how it came about...

Have any of you tested your new shroomy powers yet? I figure you will have an option to sticky the introduction post to the top...(If not I will do it)

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 14, 2007, 15:09 PM
Doh!
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 14, 2007, 17:58 PM
TP, are we to expect forthcoming Spanish translations for the topic posts?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 20:17 PM
Greetings Lisa and All,
Can 'ave a bash at it with me niblick, but I'm not a translator - I'm just good at spotting other people's mistakes >:D
Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 14, 2007, 22:28 PM
Hi,
Spotting mistakes is the easy bit, of course, especially for grizzly guirris like me.

Lisa, I never knew you were a Nelson Gabrial fan!

Si  :clapping:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 22:36 PM
OK Lisa (this was your idea, right?), Simon (here's your opp. to challenge my current leadership of the 'Shroomey Squad (a proposito de lo cúal: have any of you guys (and gals) out there read a brilliant book - called, in Spanish, ¡Eres una Bestia, Viskovitz! by Alessandro Boffa) - I think I saw a recent translation in English) and All, :dancing:
Before posting this on the corresponding thread on this board, I'd be grateful if you could just have a bash at it - be cruel - and give me your feedback. My idea is just to set the ball rolling for Spaniards to participate - on this thread, at least, given the exceptional circumstances - in Spanish. Am posting it now here before I lose it all - but still have to fill in a statistic which is lurking elsewhere on this board ...

En nombre de los moderadores de iberianature forum, quiero darle la bienvenida a nuestro foro. Como habrás notado, el idioma por defecto es el inglés, dado que el foro surge como iniciativa para intercambiar las opiniones de las personas de habla inglesa que viven aquí o que están pensando en visitar esta maravillosa Península Ibérica para conocer más a fondo su riqueza en costumbres, gastronomía y, como no, su naturaleza singular. Sin embargo, no queremos dejar sin voz a los españoles en su propio país, y por tanto hemos preparado este pequeño (aunque largo) resumen de los antecedentes de la petición.

Desde hace tiempo ya, venimos observando con preocupación, y comentándolo aquí en el foro, como en algunos lugares de la Península se están creciendo los campos de golf “como hongos”. No sería tan preocupante si esto estuviera teniendo lugar en el norte de la Península, muy parecido al clima que más se asocia con el golf en concreto. Sin embargo, en muchos casos está sucediendo precisamente en aquellas zonas en donde el agua es un recurso muy escaso.

Ya ha habido numerosas manifestaciones, a nivel local, en aquellos pueblos y localidades que se verán afectados más directamente por la construcción de un campo de golf y aquí en el foro hemos pensado que se podría echarles una mano dándole al tema un enfoque más internacional. Precisamente por ser los usuarios potenciales de esos campos las personas de habla inglesa, hemos querido lanzar esta petición a nuestros compatriotas y demás personas que utilizan el inglés.

Bien es sabido que España necesita un cambio de dirección en cuanto al tipo de turista que viene a visitar. Sin embargo, la construcción de complejos de golf, que ofrecen paquetes en donde todo está incluido y los usuarios no van a salir del complejo para contribuir a la economía local, no es la solución ni para la economía local ni, y aquí es donde obviamente un foro dedicado principalmente a la naturaleza debe estar más pendiente, para el equilibrio tan delicado de la naturaleza.

Los expertos están avisando, a diario ya, del calentamiento de la Tierra y sus efectos sobre la vida misma. Discrepan de sí es a corto o a largo plazo. Da igual – todos están de acuerdo en que está sucediendo. Y es precisamente en esta coyuntura en la que se está construyendo aún más campos de golf - en precisamente aquellas zonas más vulnerables.

El tema da para mucho, así que hemos intentado resumir – evitando en la medida de lo posible, los datos estadísticos - el contenido de muchos meses de debate aquí en iberianature forum, en los doce siguientes puntos:

1. España es uno de los países de Europa más afectados por la desertificación. Según datos del Ministerio del Medioambiente (http://www.mma.es/images/general/biodiversidad/desertificacion/que_es_desertificacion/riesgo.gif) , el 31,49% del país se enfrenta a un riesgo muy alto y más datos (http://www.programaagua.com/secciones/medios_comunicacion/prensa/notas_pre/2005/04/pdf/Desertificacion2005nota.pdf).

2. España ya ocupa – sin incluir los nuevos campos - el tercer puesto del mundo en nivel de consumo de agua por persona, según el  - Instituto de Innovación Empresarial, perteneciendo al Gobierno de Las Islas Baleares (http://www.idi.es/).

3. España entra ahora en su tercer año consecutivo de sequía – y otro año más de restricciones de abastecimiento de agua potable en muchos pueblos de Andalucía.

4. Según la Real Federación Española de Golf  (http://www.golfspainfederacion.com/), España ya dispone de 341 campos de golf y lo que resulta más preocupante, según Greenpeace (http://www.greenpeace.org/espana/), existen licencias para la construcción de unos 320 más.

5. Andalucía, es la región con mayor número de campos de golf (96 en la actualidad, con 316 previstas) y con algunas zonas, como Málaga con 46 campos en la actualidad. (Fuente: Real Federación Española de Golf).

6. El negocio (no entraremos en el tema de la especulación) está dirigido en gran medida a jugadores de golf británicos, que vendrán a un complejo golfístico, para unas jornadas intensivas de juego, con todos los gastos y servicios incluidos, pagados ya de antemano en el Reino Unido, lo cual reduce su necesidad o interés en salir a conocer los alrededores, es decir, habrá muy poco beneficio a nivel local (algo parecido a lo que sucede al pequeño comercio en las proximidades de un centro comercial.)

7. Muchos pueblos están ya manifestándose en contra de la construcción - actual o prevista – de campos de golf en sus localidades al verse directamente afectados por cortes de agua mientras que los campos de golf están obligados a tener sus propios pozos, los cuales, ni falta decirlo, están contribuyendo a vaciar los acuíferos locales.

8. Como ya es notorio, muchas licencias están siendo concedidas por los ayuntamientos desesperados por conseguir ingresos. El consiguiente “trapicheo” ha resultado en – a fecha de agosto de 2007 - en 18 alcaldes imputados directamente por licencias ilegales para la construcción de viviendas – y en todos los casos - ¡qué casualidad! - su correspondiente campo de golf. 

9. Los campos de golf necesitan cantidades enormes de agua – de ahí la lógica de su construcción en zonas con abundante lluvia. Un green (la zona de césped más cuidada del campo y con una extensión mínima, según el campo, de XX m2) necesita regarse dos veces al día. Y un campo de golf tiene 18 greens.

10. Como saben muy bien los españoles, resultará imposible jugar a golf a pleno sol durante muchas horas del día, y en cuanto los "pardillos" que vendrán una vez se lo cuentan a sus amigos en sus países de origen, muchos campos de golf  quedarán literalmente desiertas.

11. En iberianature forum no tenemos nada en contra de la práctica del juego de golf - de hecho, el que escribe estas lineas es un gran aficionado. Lo que nos preocupa - y mucho - son las consecuencias desastrosas de un aumento descontrolado en la construcción de los campos y de su ubicación.

12. España es un país maravilloso en donde se puede disfrutar de una amplia oferta turística. Brinda a los visitantes una variedad paisajística, gastronómica y de ocio sin parangón. Nosotros, los miembros de iberianature forum y amantes de España, quisiéramos contribuir a que esta situación dure mucho tiempo. Por eso pedimos que se adhiere a nuestra iniciativa y animarle a firmar la petición que se enviará a las instancias correspondientes en la UE, el Gobierno de la Nación, las CC.AA., y a la prensa británica.

Si tienes alguna pregunta, comentario o sugerencia, por favor, no dude en contactar con nosotros aquí en iberianature forum e intentaremos contestarle en cuanto antes.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 14, 2007, 23:21 PM
Greetings All,
Re. Simon's cryptic (at least to me) question to Lisa:
Quote
Nelson Gabriel (Jack May), Walter's son, was for many years the most disreputable character in the village. He had a shady history. He was charged with the Borchester mail-van robbery in 1967, but was eventually acquitted. After spells in London and Spain, he ran a wine bar and later an antque shop (with Kenton Archer). Finally he suddenly disappeared to South America, where he died in strange circumstances.

More at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Archers

Long life to Google, Wikipedia and Technopat  :dancing:

Ps. The actual ref. remains a mystery, but ... (Simon, have you ever, perchance, run a wine bar ...?)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 14, 2007, 23:36 PM
Yeah, I had to google that too, with the odd spelling change of course, sorry Simon! Can never follow a serial myself as I forget to listen in at the correct times. Catch the Simpsons every now and again though.

Anyway, love "este pequeño (aunque largo)" but don't love "No sería tan preocupante si esto estuviera teniendo lugar en el norte de la Península," We don't want bull-dozers coming up here to flatten our hills for golf courses thankyou very much.
Apart from that, it's great. How about starting a new topic on this board with a Spanish title just for Spanish. Oh, and the bit at the end I think you could drop - we will answer on the topic in Spanish. What do you think?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 15, 2007, 11:57 AM
Greetings Lisa,
Have taken your comments on board, but will wait before posting it under a new thread till I get feedback from Simon, so that the three iberianatureforumpetiton moderators are seen to be undivided on the issue.
I think the bit 'bout answering in SP. might just create that - what did Simon once call it, "feely-touchy"? - atmosphere which will help non-English speakers decide to attach their moniker. I have no contingency plan for that one as I don't seriously expect anyone to take us up on it.
Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
How are the computer-aided projections on the number of signers-per-day going? Anyone know 'bout how to do such mindless stats.?
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 15, 2007, 22:34 PM
If everyone sends the petition link to their contacts and asks them to spread it around, adds it to their email signature, posts on like-minded forums, etc. etc. we may see some progress. I've submitted it to the google search bots.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 16, 2007, 07:24 AM
Hi Techno, Lisa et al,

Brilliant work on the Spanish intro TP! I’ve got a big issue to raise on this one and this is a good opportunity to build a new topic out of it – when I find the time and when I can get the use of my left index finger (WSDFC & G – come back Pitman, all is forgiven!) – I had a bad day yesterday, finding the two red hot pimientos del padron  :o and a tussle with a chopping block, a bloody great knife and the end of the fuet . . . :'(

TP: I asked for some data re. water consumption and you posted something from the International Golf Federation, which I guess specifies the size of the greens – I suppose they have to be standard like most other sports pitches, tennis bats, cricket rackets . . . :speechless:

Here’s your reply; “The European Golf Association http://www.ega-golf.ch/070000/070500.asp also has an interesting links page

OK – the cup must be placed at least 10 feet from the edge of the green, so simplifying the maths and calculating the area of the circumference gives us (not too sure of my basics here, but something along the lines of Area = pork pie times 10 feet squared = an area of 314 ft2 times 18 greens = an absolute minimum, carefully, nurtured area of grass per gold course consisting of 5,652ft2 (approx. 1,884 sqaure metres? - how does measure in terms of soccer pitches, which I imagine would be an easier comparison for many people? ) - which of course doesn’t include the other areas that need watering!). My maths are wonky – soy de letras – En. Anyone?"


I think the issue of us not being so worried about developments northern Spain should stay: as the mainspring of our argument is to do with water resources, we can’t apply that to a region that has ample water supply but, as in Galicia for example, a genuine need for income generation and jobs. I think it should be a bit more specific, though, otherwise folk may infer that it’s OK in places like Catalonia or even Leon, I know there is a specific phrase in reference to the zone affected by the Atlantic weather system, something like Littoral Atlantico but it escapes me just now – I’ll start to watch the weather on La 1 or 2 to get it, it’ll make a change from TV3!

Developing this further: I think we should be very careful about being NIMBY-ish as it’s a weak argument in this horrible, overcrowded world. Likewise I’d avoid putting any further emphasis on the ‘cash stays abroad’ issue as I’ve been criticised for using it by an academic moderator, claiming that this point is a bit of an old chestnut. In fact the issue does stand up in Spain when one takes into account the infrastructure costs of tourism in terms of the 12 month year and 2 month peak season, i.e. ajuntamientos have to provide infrastructure and services for peak populations up to ten times the base level, plus the negative impact of short term, low-pay seasonal employment and its associated off-season unemployment. Whereas one of the advantages of golf course developments is their year-round use, so that what jobs they do create are genuinely full-time.

As for my obscure ref. I’m afraid I’ve led you both up the garden path. I actually meant to refer to Walter Gabriel, whose bye-line was “Doh”. It must have been a Freudian slip of me to write Nelson G. No, TP, I’ve never run a dodgy wine bar, although I’ve propped up a few in my time, but I did live in Brighton and had certain ‘associates’ in the antique business!

As for an on-line progress graphic, I’m surprised that the petition site doesn’t do this. The statistics and formula would be quite straightforward, but it should be integral with the petition database and would have to update automatically from the data tables at regular intervals, daily I suppose. :booklook:

Bye bye for now

Simon
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: SueMac on August 16, 2007, 09:58 AM
Hola el trio  de moderatores famosos!

Did nt think any of you were old enough to know about Walter Gabriel and thought one or two of you were snotty about my mentioning Radio Four............ :o
Back to this thread which has been running now for sometime.  I have been able to keep up with most of it during the last few weeks but being rather tired and a tad busy now I havent been able to give it my full attention. I was aware however that I was feeling a little bit uncomfortable  without having the energy to put in the mental spade work.

Just an aside here :if it made me feel a little at sea and slightly uncomfortable you need to think about all those people you are trying to appeal to and make it as easy as possible for them

I kind of got hold of some of my anxieties reading Simon's last post which I think ties down some of the points.  For what its worth here are some of my thoughts.

1.  I think tackling this issue is incredibly important and well done the way you have set about it.
2.  Can someone summarise succinctly for me exactly who the petition is aimed at?
The Spanish government, expats, awareness raising of the English, Spanish the golf industry, the tourist industry
3. The importance of the game of golf to this country's  (my chosen place to live) world status (honour, pride  economy etc) must be highlighted and treated with extreme care. However any encouraging of a change of direction must bring the indigenous people along as well. So I think TPs spanish emphasis at least goes part way to addressing this.
4. Be careful of the number of petitions going around - I sense it could get to be be counterproductive.
5. Other routes that could also be considered with help from TP - hitting some of the big newspapers of Spain by letters to the ed. Golf magazines, Tourist magazines.
6. Dont use any statistic which could make this forum look stupid by its inaccuracy and consequently its integrity.
7. DONT stop! There is so much at stake and stuff to be conveyed to a very large catchment group.
Best
SueMac
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 16, 2007, 11:08 AM
Greetings SueMac,
Nice points. Thanks for your feedback and input.
The reason (in part) it all seems so confusing and long-winded is
a) I'm involved,
b) we suddenly went from bandying mere words about to setting up a fully-fledged petition, with very little in between. We had sort of hoped others would join in a sort of taskforce and rationalise things a bit before going anywhere, but time is ... >:D , and
c) the only co-ordination we've done is what you've already seen on these (virtual) pages.

In answer to one of your points ('cos this is already longer than intended), speaking personally, my idea is the following re. your 2) target groups - on the one hand, I want to appeal to as wide an audience as possible rather than restricting it to those who are already environmentally-aware. I know for a fact that many people, rightly or wrongly, don't get more directly involved in protests because they don't want to give more protagonism to certain NGOs which they don't identify with. This target can be reached by approaching all the national and local press (both in Sp. and the UK), but as far as I'm concerned, that's for the future when we've already accumulated a serious number of sigs. - not many people read the paper now in summer - but many will have driven past gold courses at full sprinkler - as indeed one signee (non-iberianatureforumer, as far as I know) has already mentioned!

Likewise, I personally don't want to antagonise golfers, some of whom are genuinely nice people and even environmentally-aware. I'd just like them to rationalise the situation as it stands here in Spain, at least, and do something about it or at least talk about it amongst themselves.

Must stop now - how do you guys (and gals) manage to keep your postings so brief and to-the-point?

Optimistic regs.,
Technopat
Ps.
Re. the initial target of 10,000 signatures, I can't remember who said it, and it's too good to be my own, but it's great:
Quote
I haven't let success go to my head.
Have you had much success then?
None whatsoever.
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: SueMac on August 16, 2007, 11:23 AM
Just following on to that  people who have had holidays and are beginning to get back to work will be available for someone to hit them hard with this stuff - that makes it mid September to mid October as a critical period. After that you have half term hols November and Xmas!!! Dont think people will engage so much.
SueMac
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 16, 2007, 11:36 AM
Greetings Simon and All,
Just read yours, Simon - tough luck! Traumeel (lotion) is also great for regenerating damaged skin (once the wound is semi-closed).

So I post the Sp. version. (minus Lisa's concerns, toning it down re. SueMac's points and your latest). If it needs to be amended further, no prob. - what's been read by those who've read it is old hat and what will be read by newcomers will stand. It's early days yet.

I think that, as this is an ongoing project, any and all the bits people keep adding on are great - that's what forums are about - and we can slip in little details "drop by drop" as we go along (as you rightly point out, the fact that something - off-season unemployment in Spain - may be an old chesnut elsewhere and/or in academia, doesn't make it any less real), almost in passing.

As for the mindless stats., until one of our fellow (guys and gals) iberianatureforumers comes along with the technology/knowhow, I'll pop in every now and then to the petition site and see what the tally is. Crude but effective, and we can draw conclusions from there.

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 16, 2007, 13:19 PM
Greetings All
Simon, re. your
Quote
cricket rackets and tennis bats
are the latter related to these sweet-and-cuddly things from down-under - although this Wikipedia article suggests that they are not always so sweet-and-c. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wombat) ?  8)
Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
Update of sigs:
As of 1 p.m. on day 3, there are 10 sigs. Good start!
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 17, 2007, 10:00 AM
Sorry if I jumped in a bit too quickly there with the getting-of-the-petition-online but we could discuss it forever and be too fussy. Anyway, it can be amended at any time.
My turn to be nitty-picky, TP, you've started off your excellent Spanish post with "darle" and then continued with "habrás".  :noidea: Sure your Spanish is better than mine though  :clapping: 

P.S. My brother's a golfer - will be interested to hear his views  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 17, 2007, 11:25 AM
Greetings Lisa and All,
Thanx for the nitty-pickiness - totally correct, of course - but taking advantage that we're foreign users of Spanish and can thus be forgiven certain liberties  8) , I had sort of played with the idea of a formal welcome and then chumminess, but reading it 'cold',  I see now that it doesn't work (especially as towards the end I reverted to asking for their sig. by using the formal form again). Fixed now. Does it really look as good as I reckon it does?  :technodevil:
Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: lisa on August 17, 2007, 15:01 PM
Yes.  :technodevil:  :sign:  :dancing:
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 17, 2007, 16:17 PM
Greetings All,
Does anyone out there have the necessary skills required for lobbying Our Great and Wise Etceteras into putting a reference in Sp. and En. (with a link either to the thread here or direct to the petition site) to the petition on the Iberianature web page AND moving the board up so that it's right up there at the top when people log in. If you think it's a good idea.

As usual my credit with the powers-that-b. is pretty low - in fact one might say it's hit an all-time low - and I'm not in a pos. to get 'em to do anything right now. I've tried sending out positive vibes, but to no avail - ADSL is too primitive, I suppose (or they are particularly hard-skinned), so I reckon some of that ol' feminine charm we hear so much about might do the trick ...  :technodevil:

Humble regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on August 17, 2007, 17:24 PM
Hola los shroomies, (or is that las shroomies)

I Have stickied the petition post that Lisa made to the top of this board. (You'll see that as moderators of this board you can sticky stuff as well)

I think that this board where it is is fine just so long as conversation within it is restricted to subjects about the construction of Golf courses and the associated building and environmental impact...

Separate topics for different subjects.. there must dozens of plataformas en la defensa del campo y contra las golf. Maybe we can find the people and get some of them posting their particular problems... ie the Ronda problem that i have moved to this board.....

Why don't you add a sentence to the stickied post to make sure people understand that they can click the link to go to the petition site to sign...

Then after that lock this thread as it is 5 pages long now and pretty much explains why you started the petition....

Clive
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Simon on August 17, 2007, 18:26 PM
Hello Shroomies, Forumites, my fellow gregarians, etc. etc.

Sorry to be so slow in following up some feedback queries, especially to SueMac.

I've made a new topic called 'A Question of Language' (http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,632.0.html) which I think addresses, or at least dwels upon, some of the points raised by the petition, including SueMac's point about our dipping our feet quite publicly in the murky world of politics and pressure groups.

It's rather long so be warned!

Simon

PS SueMac; I can even remember Mrs Dale's Diary, although at that time I believed that they all lives behind the blank screen of the telly when the dial was turned to 9 (well, I think it was '9' it was forty-five years ago!)
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 21, 2007, 13:53 PM
Greetings All,
Update on no-more-golf-clubs (I've got enough wiv me niblick!) petition: as of 1.30 p.m. 21st August 2007, just over a week since the ball was set rolling, there are 14 signatures = averaging two-a-day, má' o menos.

I have embedded a direct link to the petition site on the Spanish-language summary.

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Technopat on August 31, 2007, 12:21 PM
Greetings All,
Have just checked Petition site to get end-of-month update:

Petition Day 18
As of 12:10 p.m. on 30th August 2007 there were 18 signatures, averaging, if my figures are correct, one a day.

For those of you us interested in mindless stats., this is a drop to exactly half the average at last count. However, August is peak season for tourist destinations, and I'm sure there is a direct inverse relationship with petition-signing and am likewise sure that as people return to their normal routines, including petition signing, this downward trend will cease. With winter drawing nearer, the snowball effect will come into play and more and more people will sign ...

Regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Driving over golf courses
Post by: Clive on September 01, 2007, 16:07 PM
I am locking this topic now as it is 5 pages long and pretty much explains why the petition started.

Clive