Iberianature Forum

Iberian geography, history, geology, environment and climate => History and Society => Topic started by: Jill on September 03, 2007, 21:19 PM

Title: Spanish civil war
Post by: Jill on September 03, 2007, 21:19 PM
Hola,

Not a nature related question, but it is an Iberian thing:- My elder daughter is very keen to learn everything that she can about the Spanish civil war. General history books don't give enough info about what life was like then for the people, and nor has she found a website with enough information to satisfy her requirements. I can't remember where I put Hemingway - we'll obviously have to get another copy - but I was wondering if anybody could recommend any other books (history books, novels, or memoirs) which cover the subject or which are set during that era.
She'd rather they were in English, of course.

Jill

 
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Clive on September 03, 2007, 21:40 PM
Hi Jill,

I am not sure if you will be able to find a web based factual and unbiased deposit of information.

As an example you could start the research at http://lacucaracha.info

Clive
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lisa on September 04, 2007, 09:49 AM
Hi Jill and Xöe,
apart from Hemingway, I read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia which only confused me even more, so many different factions and sub-factions involved in the fighting. I found Laurie Lee's As I Walked Out One Mid-Summer Morning much easier going and would suggest that as a start.
I wonder if there's a local hero/bandit (depending on one's political leanings) round your way? The last "emboscado" (fugitve hiding in the woods) around our way, "Juanín", (http://es.geocities.com/los_del_monte/index) was eventually shot by the Guardia Civil in 1957!
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: nick on September 04, 2007, 10:29 AM
I think she would want something in Spanish wouldn't she? I loved Laurie Lee but he's a poet more than a social recorder and so not exactly an accurate recorder of reality.

The iberianture.com position is unconcerned by liberal worries of bias:

(http://www.iberianature.com/material/photos/madrid_bear.jpg)
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lucy on September 04, 2007, 15:00 PM
I can really recommend Robert Fraser  "Blood of Spain: an Oral history".  I read it years ago and found it rivetting, as it's based on people narrating their personal experiences of the civil war.  I don't know if it was published in Spanish too, but I imagine so.  I keep meaning to get another copy as someone borrowed mine and disappeared with it.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: nick on September 04, 2007, 16:14 PM
Yes, I'd forgotten about that. Very good
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Clive on September 04, 2007, 17:22 PM
And coincidentally the Olive Press newspaper has just published some info about the writers and publications about the civil war

http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/09/04/the-spanish-civil-war-and-the-written-word-2/

Clive
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on September 04, 2007, 17:28 PM
Hi Jill,

This may be a heavyweight book to recommend but it's beginning to be seen as the definitive history:

Beevor, Anthony, (2006). The Battle for Spain. ISBN 13: 978-0-7538-2165-7

What's more it's available here in peperback  at €15.90

Although it is an academic book it is highly riveting and unputdownable, but I should say it makes pretty depressing, not to say shocking reading. It changed a lot of my views of the Republic and opened my eyes big time.

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Jill on September 05, 2007, 10:40 AM
Thank-you, to everybody, for all your suggestions.

Yes, I must buy another copy of "As I walked out..." Xoe will like it, just as she liked "Cider with Rosie", precisely because of the poetic style. However you are right, Nick: she also needs some social recording of reality. You're wrong about her wanting it in Spanish - teenagers are very lazy people; just like the rest of us - but I would imagine that we are more likely to find first-hand accounts in Spanish, so if you know of any do, please, add them to the list.

Xoe is a prolific reader and is always hungry for more; if I can only get my hands on these books she will devour the whole lot. The Robert Fraser book sounds as if it would be especially useful because what she is actually aiming to do is write a novel set in the civil war era. So, although she needs the facts about the fighting, and needs to understand the politics, she also needs to be able to get into the mind of the people.

Lisa, your comments about local heroes really set me thinking. Looking at this place - with its holiday apartments  and its shiny new cars and boats; its increasingly thick veneer of super-abundant, superfluous wealth; its permanent party atmosphere - it's just so hard to imagine it torn by war. Indeed, you alerted me to the fact that my subconscious mind had placed the civil war Somewhere Else. This place - La Manga - is just too affluent, too greedy and grab-what-you-can, in its nature, to be a place that has come through the very worst kind of war... It all makes no sense. I suppose, perhaps, it's simply a case of people having been so appalled by what they went through that they deliberately and purposefully stamped out the memory. (If so, I think they should stop stamping now.)
   Then I realise that, of course, there was nothing and nobody here at La Manga during the civil war era. Or was there? There were no villages - no houses even - but that dosn't mean that nobody was around. The military were certainly around. San Javier was already an air base, I'm sure. Isla Grosa was a naval base - some sort of training ground for SAS style divers, if the rumours are correct - and Perdiguera (the island inside the Mar Menor) is said by some to have been a munitions dump. The tunnel where Caesar found the snake is said to have been made by Franco's troops. It all sets my mind wondering... as, indeed, it has Xoe's.

By the way Lisa; congratulations on managing to put the dierysis on Xoe. Actually, it goes over the e, rather than the o, but it's the thought that counts. I'm thinking about it too... but I can't remember how to do it.

Jill
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Dave on September 05, 2007, 13:05 PM
Hi Jill and Xoe
This is an excellent web page, with links to various Articles on the Civil war. Agreed, it is based on the point of view of the Anarchists, but it has individual stories as well as a general overview all in English.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spaindx.html#People.
Regards
Dave
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lisa on September 05, 2007, 15:01 PM
Sounds like there's already civil unrest in La Manga Dave. Mind you don't get blamed for an uprising.

 :-[ Xoë  :lighttbulb: (From Windows character map, no idea about a Mac.)
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: John on September 10, 2007, 00:46 AM
Hello Jill

Laurie Lee's " A Moment of War" deals more with his experiences in the Civil War, than does"As I walked out....."
"Winter in Madrid" by CJ Sansom...story set in Madrid shortly after the end of the Civil War...easy read but good description of Madrid at the time.
Also recommend "Doves of War" by Paul Preston....women's participation in the Civil War.

If you go on my website to

 http://www.tuktuktours.co.uk/links.htm

You will find a fair number of links to sites on the Civil War that maybe you will find interesting

Hope I've been of some assistance

John
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Jill on September 10, 2007, 21:30 PM
Thank-you to everybody!

Xoe (with a dierysis on the e) has now ordered pretty much every book that was suggested.... so I just hope that we can fit them all on board!

Jill

(P.S. Lisa, you forgot to tell me where the character map is hidden. Isn't there a nice quick link? There used to be on my old computer... )
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lisa on September 10, 2007, 22:44 PM
Mine's in Accessories - System tools (Windows PC.)
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 21, 2007, 01:30 AM
Greetings All,
Jeez, folks! Y'all gone and done it again - embark on an interesting thread while muggins 'ere was being slowly roasted alive on the beach.

You've covered just 'bout everything, and John's web site and Dave's excellent recommendation were very interesting, with references and links etc. that were new to me. Thanx.

One of the most powerful books covering that period is Arturo Barea's trilogy La forja de un rebelde (Forging of a Rebel) - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_Barea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_Barea). First published in English, it wasn't published in Spain until after Franco's death, although a Spanish version had been published earlier in Argentina.

RTVE has been broadcasting an "interesting" (if you can stand the awful acting, which I can't and so have not watched more than 10 minutes) soap opera over the last few months Amar en tiempos revueltos (4 p.m.-ish?) which is currently set in the 50s, I think, but which started with episodes set at the end of the war. Apart from the poetic licence to be expected from a soap, according to some of my sources (family-in-law), it did/does portray very accurately the atmosphere of mistrust, repression and dire circumstances in the post-war period. Anyway, Xoë's missed the period she was specifically interested in and will have to wait for the re-run (unless there's a change in government next year, in which case she will certainly not be able to watch it - and you think I'm joking!).

As for Orwell's Homage, despite the smear campaign apparently carried out against him a few years ago back in the UK (of which I only have secondhand information) and depsite Lisa being confused by the different factions involved - possibly you read it before coming to Spain or shortly after having arrived? - it does portray the chaos and bleakness surrounding the whole tragic affair and was the first to reveal the in-fighting taking place within the Republican government factions, as well as the deplorable behaviour of certain foreign governments who shall be nameless but whose head lives at no. 10.

Because of Orwell's critical stance, his then publisher, Victor Gollancz, refused to publish it because it put many of the people involved in the fight against the fascists, especially the Communist Party, in very bad light. But I'm speaking from memory, and may be putting my foot in you-know-where again.

Several films covering that period have also been released over the last few years, but as I'm not a cinéfilo (En. anyone?), so maybe someone can recommend some.

Regs.
Technopat

PS.
Caesar's tunnel, rather than having been made by Franco's troops, would have been dug out by forced labour gangs aka prisoners-of-war.

PPS.
Not sure that I agree with Jill's logical assumption that we're more likely to find first-hand reports in Spanish. Second-and-third-hand possibly. History was written by the victors and the few survivors left have only recently started being taken into account, much to the horror of certain factions - as in the Salamanca Archives - over to Nick in BCN or Simon in TGN?
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on September 21, 2007, 07:38 AM
Hi there peeps
 You seem to have covered my liist. It was Winter in Madrid that really got me going.  Excellent notes section at the back.
 When I was looking for material on Freddie Garcia Lorca the internet took me to some very interesting places and consequently gave me a peek into the Spanish psyche.  Apart from the obvious differences in political thought there are those people who want to put a lid on the past and those who still need answers to what happened to them and their loved ones. I have one or two references at foot of FGL article on the blog.

However the Beever book is being mooted I believe by both English and Spanish academics as the best book written so far on this part of Spanish (and European) history.
SueMac
psI have a copy of AS I went out...... Zoe which I am prepared to donate to the cause if you would like....email me.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: glennie on September 21, 2007, 09:25 AM
Several films covering that period have also been released over the last few years, but as I'm not a cinéfilo (En. anyone?), so maybe someone can recommend some.
Regs.
Technopat

Land and Freedom - Ken Loach. Must be one of the best. Attests to what Orwell had to say about the Communists and their attempts to get a stranglehold on the revolution.

There have been a lot of Spanish movies, though all titles escape me. Spanish conservatives often complain about what they see as constant charicaturing in these movies - almost all Nationalists are bad and mean and monstruous and (nearly) all Republicans are salt of the earth idealists. Inevitably there is some oversimplification; maybe the reality was just too complex at times and does not lend itself to film making.

But I guess it is true that, whether the Left like it or not, there is a film/documentary to be made about the thousands of priests and nuns that were 'put to the sword', which is just something that is generally ignored now (of course, you could argue that this is just redressing the balance after almost 40 years of the dictatorship rowing in the opposite directioin). While some  claim that such bloodletting was simple historical inevitability given the historic role of the Church in Spain (same kind of 'inevitability' explanation could be given for the raping of almost all German women by Soviet troops in 44-45), it all gets a lot less simple once you start looking at the fate of individuals.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on September 21, 2007, 11:07 AM
Hello all,

The Must Read book of them all has got to be The Forging of a Rebel (a trilogy) by Arturo Barera. It's recently been replrinted in one volume by Granta.

Enjoy

Simon X
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: nick on September 21, 2007, 11:49 AM
There were a number of propoganda films made in the 1950s about priests as victims.

My favourite Spanish-made Civil War film is Ay Carmela. I think it does well to portay people as humans not as caricatures
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: glennie on September 21, 2007, 11:55 AM
There were a number films made in the 1950s about priests as victims.

That's what I meant by 'rowing in the opposite direction'. Doubtless, all the Republicans are bad and mean and monstruous and all (and I mean all) of the Nationalists are salt of the earth idealists!

And I don't seem to be able to spell any more: charicatures; monstruous !Maybe I'm reading too much Spanish (and German, I should add)  and not enough English.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: glennie on September 21, 2007, 12:05 PM
Hello all,

The Must Read book of them all has got to be The Forging of a Rebel (a trilogy) by Arturo Barera. It's recently been replrinted in one volume by Granta.

Enjoy

Simon X

Will look out for that one. I think it's Barea.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 21, 2007, 13:03 PM
Greetings All,
Statistics are wonderful things and the fantastic things that can be done with 'em never cease to amaze me. Apart from university teachers in the cities and the numerous village schoolteachers - a whole "missing" generation of well-trained maestros under the Republic who were, at best, imprisoned as subversive elements, there were also several cases of "Red" priests taken for a ride in the middle of the night and whose bodies were found the next day. These of course ended up on the tally of the Church's martyrs. If the whole thing wasn't so grotesque, it would be funny. On the other hand it is always the civilian population that suffers most. And as Glennie pointed out, both sides in a war are guilty of atrocities, as war is about atrocities full stop

A personal anecdote re. priests from Mrs Technopat's wonderful late grandmother who always spoke of the priest in her village who literally interrogated everyone during confession - about themselves and what they knew of everyone else, and how she actually saw him, hidden behind the corner, point out on three separate occasions, left-leaning villagers - not even militant activists - to the Nationalist troops who controlled the area and who would appear in the evenings. The three guys were taken away in full view of everyone and never heard of again, not even many years after the war and she said many of the villagers would gladly have killed the priest if there had been any way of doing it without reprisals. But the guy never left the church and it was impossible to stage an accident along a lonely country road. And of course, after the war, anyone who had got married at a civil ceremony during the Republic had to get married in church. That's why she was so happy that Mrs T and I were able to get married in the ayuntamiento - the first civil wedding in the history of the village, after tremendous amount of red tape and veiled threats to appeal to the Constitutional Court - 16 years after Franco died. (The mayor, officially designated by the Ministry of Justice, didn't have what it takes to officiate and phoned in sick the day before, delegating in the Justice of the Peace, the semi-literate local butcher.) Living in Spain is NEVER boring  :dancing:

Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 21, 2007, 14:22 PM
Greetings All,
For the benefit of those newish to Spain, and the recent history still haunting many, if not most, Spaniards, here is a summary of article in today's El País which carries the story of the petition (500 signatures) presented yesterday http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/caben/dilaciones/sociedad/victimas/pueden/esperar/elpepunac/20070921elpepinac_13/Tes (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/caben/dilaciones/sociedad/victimas/pueden/esperar/elpepunac/20070921elpepinac_13/Tes) by leading public figures demanding the government stop dithering and pass the bill giving (moral) compensation to the victims of Franco's repression which is still going through parliament. They accuse the government of bowing to pressure from the PP and also demand that a formal condemnation be made of Franco's dictatorship and that the summary trials and courts martial carried out be declared null and void.

As far as I could make out, neither ABC nor La Razón (digital versions) carried the story.

Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on September 21, 2007, 18:40 PM
Dear all
This is one of the sections with an interactive account of the bombing of Gurnica on the  eitb24 website I found it fascinating effective and incredibly moving :
 http://www.eitb24.com/html/infografias/gernika2/index_en.htmlueMac
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on September 21, 2007, 18:41 PM
..that is if you take the UEMAC off the end.....
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 21, 2007, 18:49 PM
Greetings All,
As SueMac seems to have too much on her hand these days, I've taken the liberty of fixing it:

 http://www.eitb24.com/html/infografias/gernika2/index_en.html (http://www.eitb24.com/html/infografias/gernika2/index_en.html)
Regs.
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on September 22, 2007, 19:16 PM
Greetings TP, SueMac, Glennie, Jill et al,

This thread is truring out ot be brilliant. (Glennis, you're right, it is Barea. By the way, he's almost completelt unknown in Spain as although he wrote in Spanish the books were brillinatly translated by his Austrian wife and never published in Spanish. As an exile he worked for the BBC world service and broadcast to Latin America)

TP: many thanks for your very personal update on post war issues. Oe of thin thngs I feel morst strongly about are the examples of personal tragedy that I have ben privileged to be told by my neighbours and friends here. I've often thought about puting them up in a diary topic, byut somehow feel that I would be breaking a confidence - so am I just as guillty of the bg cover up as so many other people?

Over to you all and thanx once again!

Simon

PS not many posts as I'm partying until Teusday If you can't take the pace never come to www.santateclatarragona.cat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 23, 2007, 02:34 AM
Greetings Simon and All,
As always, Simon, you have an uncanny ability to bring ethical, etc. issues to the fore - as we all know - even those of us unfortunate enough not to share life with a psychologist :dancing: - not talking openly about important issues just leaves festering wounds and Spain has yet to come to terms with its recent past - possibly because many of its players are still alive, but am not sure if that is an acceptable "excuse".

Personal experiences told to a psychologist, lawyer or a priest (etc.?) are bound by formal rules - although they can be publicised as anonymous case studies -. The fact that someone chooses to talk about themselves to another who is not one of the above does not necessarily imply a pact of secrecy - in fact it could be considered a real desire to make public something that one does not dare speak about oneself. Over the years that I've lived here I have found that (some) people are less reluctant to talk to me about their beliefs - political or otherwise - i.e. to a foreigner, than they would to anyone other than an intimate friend. I'll have to remember to ask Mrs T whether the need to "come clean" - or what Cathoilics would call "confess" -  is a human instinct.

In the case of Mrs T's grandmother - the only person who initially accepted a foreigner into the family - she implored us to do everything possible to ensure that the tragedy she lived through not be repeated (she lost three sons - out of twelve), and sincerely believed that inter-racial/cultural breeding was the key to preventing further inter-ethnic bloodshed - a profound person. A deeply religious person, she didn't blame any particular banda - just the evilness of individual human beings who were allowed to do whatever they wanted by other people's passivity.

On the other hand, following the trend of this thread, have been in contact with a historian friend of mine who knows just about all there is to know 'bout Spain's history, literature, etc. - and continuously embarrasses me by feigning surprise when it's obvious that I haven't a clue what he's on about - who has promised to draw up a list of books and films related to this period and classified from all viewpoints.

He added - to my surprise, but given his indepth knowledge of the matter, I'm inclined to believe him - that while Gibson, Preston, Hughes and Gabriel Jackson all write from a "neutral" viewpoint - thus necessarily (deeply) critical of Franco's rebellion and subsequent dictatorship, their accounts are really those of politically conservative historians and tend to play down the social reality of Spain before, during and after the civil war. He did mention someone else - whose (Anglo-Saxon) name I just couldn't catch, even on the fifth attempt - as being more realistic in his analysis, but as he's preparing a written list, we'll just have to wait for that.

This guy is also a real cinófilo and has films (and No-Dos) you only find mentioned in the most scholarly works.

Likewise, he mentioned - but to be confirmed - that there were some 3,000 (give or take statistically possible duplications) priests, nuns and other people related to the church asesinados - his word - (murdered) during the initial period of the war but that these were more the result of personal vendettas than of any institutional organisation - and were specifically prohibited very early on by the (Anarchist) minister, whereas many of the extra-judicial killings carried out by the Nationalists were following specific orders to eliminate subversive elements. He was referring strictly to the period of the war - the postwar repression and retaliation is worse. He added that the worst cases of "organised" atrocities were the murders - particularily when Madrid was under seige - of imprisoned Nationalist officers who refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Republican government. This is also related to the Paracuellos massacre.

Not sure how far this particular thread should continue - it is after all only loosely related to nature, albeit human (?). If the Powers-that-b. lodge a formal complaint, maybe those iberianatureforumers interested in the matter can communicate over the PMS, or is there the possibility of a sub-channel?

Not-very-cheerful regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lucy on September 23, 2007, 10:53 AM
You're right, Technopat, that people often confide in you when you're a foreigner.  I've been taken aside by people who were quite happy to live under Franco, and who were anxious to let me, an outsider, know their point of view, as here in Catalunya they are in a minority. There are so many stories to be told.

This tendency can have its downside, however, such as when you're stuck in a small train wagon, bleary-eyed after an all night journey, and at 7.00am the man opposite wants you to understand exactly why the Socialist government is so bad for Barcelona, and Spain in general. 
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: glennie on September 23, 2007, 22:59 PM
Likewise, he mentioned - but to be confirmed - that there were some 3,000 (give or take statistically possible duplications) priests, nuns and other people related to the church asesinados - his word - (murdered) during the initial period of the war but that these were more the result of personal vendettas than of any institutional organisation - and were specifically prohibited very early on by the (Anarchist) minister, whereas many of the extra-judicial killings carried out by the Nationalists were following specific orders to eliminate subversive elements.
Not-very-cheerful regs.,
Technopat

Sorry to take this even further from Spanish nature, but this difference between state-sponsored terror and 'spontaneous' terror can be made forcibly when comparing Serb and HVO (Sarajevo-loyal) actions respectively in the all too recent war in Bosnia. Pretending that this difference did not exist enabled the EU to stand back, watch the genocide, and allege that one side was just as bad as the other. For more on this war, see the absolutely unputdownable My War Gone By, I Miss It So, by Anthony Loyd.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on September 24, 2007, 11:55 AM
Hi all,

Just taking a breather from the party and also advantage of the fact that my mate Ivan, who is a Celtic Warrior has left me my pit study free for half an hour!

So just a few points until next week, probably:

1) back to Jill/Xöe's original request: you should check out Martha Gelhorn for her reports on Spain both during and after the war, plus her opinion of Hemmingway, even allowing for the fact that she was Mrs H for a time her views are valid and extremely well put I have her twin volume collections: ‘The Face of War’ (1959) and The View from the Ground’ (1989) published by Granta books (1998) – these are some of the best books I’ve ever read, a most wonderful writer and journalist. :booklook:

2) on to TP and Glennie: I think this thread is very relevant to Spanish nature as I see a direct connection between some of the environmental management concerns we have shared and the historical antecedents of use/abuse of power at local level, most obviously speculation and corruption in local government. But more subtly the notorious unwillingness to make complaints or ‘denuncios’. I need to justify this view properly and I will do so next week after I’ve had my rest cure in the mountains! :clapping:

3) the ethics of confession: I disagree with Techno here, I don’t think that information given to professionals or the clergy is as strictly ‘confidential’ as you suggest although it’s true that there is an etiquette about anonymity for publication. Professionals have t use various forms of supervision, ongoing training in order to work, so clients/patients should expect their information to be shared in a strictly controlled way, although it’s certainly the case that this is rarely explained to them. There is also the big dilemma of what you do with info pertaining to issues such as child abuse, which in my humble opinion should transcend the Catholic confessional. :booklook:

4) I have grave doubts about the ethics/value of ‘coming clean’ and reliving memories. Again, this is a big subject and I need to discuss it more fully. Talking of coming clean, however, I should point out to Techno that if you think it’s bad being married to a psychologist you should try looking at one every time you take a shave!  ;D

More later folks!

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 24, 2007, 18:36 PM
Greetings Simon and All,
This 'ere thread developing at the speed of light - much too fast for the likes of me. Stop the world, I need to get off!
Agree fully with your direct connection re. historical (and why not historic?, and while we're at it, contemporary) use/abuse of power at local level.
Re. ethics of confession - am slightly perplexed as to what you disagree with as I don't think I said anything too far removed from what you mention, although you take it a step further.
Re. reliving memories is indeed too big a subject for a layperson like wot I is, but happy to discuss it superficially with y'all.

Regs.,
Technopat
Resisting temptation to read between lines - one usually ends up reaching warped conclusions
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on September 24, 2007, 20:18 PM
Dear Peeps
 I am finding this forum or at least off shoots of it extremely interesting and this slow process of coming clean ourselves ie  psychologists, partners of psychologists, therapists, I 'm guessing a fair sprinkling of academics. Different philosophical political historical viewpoints. I actually dont think there is a great deal of difference around just different ways of expressing ourselves. We share a love of the natural world and I think it is teresting to think about our collective life experiences which brought me and you here.

Now I need to go and eat my peasant food but not before I state my viewn that I have a long list of things that I will not be quiet about.   It doesnt mean you have to break confidences but silence is massively damaging. I will return....  :booklook: SueMac
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 24, 2007, 23:42 PM
Greetings All,
Not sure if anyone's already mentioned Gerald Brenan, who I haven't actually read anything by, but who, according to my Sp. historian friend, was the least conservative of the Anglo-Saxon historians (Preston, Hughes, Jackson, etc.).

Although Hughes' book on the Spanish Civil War (1961) was prohibited in Spain (but published in Spanish by a French-based Communist publishing company), he was of course director - for more than 10 years - of the Centre for Policy Studies, Thatcher's personal think tank.

Regs.,
Technopat






Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lucy on September 25, 2007, 00:37 AM
Another interesting book is "Only for three months", written by a friend of mine, Adrian Bell, about the Basque children who were taken in (begrudgingly) by the UK and ended up staying.   Adrian sought them out and interviewed them about their experiences.

The Face of Spain by Brenan gives a clear idea of Spain just after the civil war.  His book about the Alpujarras, set before the war, is great.  There is a particularly good story about a visiting friend, tall, thin, pallid and blonde, who is mistaken for a bogy man called a "Mantequero" (who was supposed to kill people and live off human fat) by a couple of gypsies, who capture him, tie him up and take him to the police station.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 25, 2007, 08:28 AM
Greetings Lucy,
Thanx for that - your reference to El Mantequero struck a chord 'cos my father-in-l. (Andaluz) is always telling stories 'bout his postwar childhood and this bogeyman, together with other horror stories from a society pushed to the limits, crops up often. Maybe I should start paying attention to the guy when he starts rambling and jot down some of the stuff he comes out with.
Regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on September 25, 2007, 10:09 AM
Dear lucy and TP
I was frightened of the Spanish police as a child living in England..
SueMac
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lucy on September 25, 2007, 13:03 PM
Hi TP and SueMac,
Yes, the Mantequero seems to be a species of southern Spanish bogeyman – no Catalan I’ve asked had heard of him.  As for the other sort of bogeyman, my partner was taken to Benidorm as a child, and his two strongest memories are drinking orange juice for the first time (wow – compare UK supermarkets of 1970 and now), and the machine gun toting men wearing sinister plastic hats at the airport.  Machine guns at airports – that’s another thing that’s become quite normal.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on September 25, 2007, 13:09 PM
Hi,

Sorry TP, I was distracted and didn't finish; I was going to go on and say that as these confidences were made without clarifying thier level of confidentiality I will think 'fail safe'. I also can't find a way to anonymise in such a small community as mine, which is clearly identified through the link to our web site.

To my disgrace I've never eread anythig by Gerald B, just never got my hands on the book. But thanks for the briefing Lucy. And another thing Lucy: I think your bumpy ride on the local 'wagons' is turning you into a Catalan by a process of psychic osmosis best described by Myles n'a Gopaleen! It happens to me to, I never seem to earn money these days, just gain it from time to time!

Hi SueMac, glad to see you on board!

One of those Basque refugee children went to school with my mother!
Ciao!

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 25, 2007, 14:09 PM
Greetings All,
SueMac - how did you manage to get over your irrational fear of Spanish police? I've been a sententious sentient grown-up for many years now and have been unable to overcome my irr. fear. (In fact, as a kid I distinctly remember looking up to the local copper (did anyone back in the LOG ever refer to 'em as "bobbies"?) as an amiable chap cum sort of hero figure ... ).

Simon - takes me way back to one summer in the mid-70s when, at my old man's instigation(?), there wasn't a waking moment that I didn't have either one of Myles na gCopaleen's books in me hands or one of Flann O'Brien's. As for money - have you ever tried putting it on?

Lucy - not sure if I should mention this on a public forum, but on my last, recent trip to the LOG, I was pleasantly surprised that there were no toters (in sight) in the places we've unfortunately come to expect - as always, these things are relative.

Regs.,
Technopat

PS.
Simon, I wasn't trying to incite you to giving away trade secrets over the internet. Maybe we can bide our time and drag 'em out of elicit 'em you at the summit - over a couple of bottles of Morlanda :technodevil:
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Jill on September 25, 2007, 15:44 PM
Golly-Gosh, you chaps have been busy while we've been absent from terra firma!

Many thanks for all the new ideas, which will all be added to Xoë's list. (I can see we're going to have to sling out some lead to make way for all this new ballast.) Technopat, your account of your abuela-in-law's memoirs is especially fascinating. We look forward to more (!) and we look forward to your Spanish friend's list of recommendations.

Jill
pp Xoë (Shortish-cut for an e with a dierysis : number lock on, press Alt and mkli (0235), remove finger from Alt key... and don't forget to turn off number lock. Sometimes I wish I'd just named her Eva.)
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on September 25, 2007, 16:20 PM
Greetings All,
Re. Lucy's Mantequero, have decided to add Mrs Technopat to my list of Usually Reliable Sources as an Honorary/Honorific Member i.e. she gets to contribute to quenching my thirst for knowledge for free  :dancing: .

Trying to get to the bottom of this Mantequero biz. I came up against two similar but confusing references which have since been clarified (?) for me.

A) El mantequero was the name given to the man who went round door-to-door (in Madrid) selling butter (mantequilla) and honey. Mrs T. says he used to wear a sort of rough harness over his shoulder from which hung two large earthenware/clay (?) pots which contained respectively, h. and b. Remember those signs back 'ome in the LOG: "No hawkers, peddlars, etc..."?

B) On the other hand, manteca (which I had always understood to mean lard, and which the DRAE gives as the 3rd meaning*) - as opposed to mantequilla is also used in the bogeyman concept as the person el mantequero or sacamantecas who picked up lost kids,stuck 'em in the sack, killed 'em and sold off the various by-products, especially the lard (the implication being that no-one would tell the difference between human and pork lard) and lard of course being the only meat protein product poor people would have access to, hence its traditonally mandatory use in many Spanish dishes.

There does seem to be some confusion as to the difference 'tween this particular bogeyman and "El hombre del saco" - which does have a Català equivalent (but I can't do the accent - maybe something like els hom dels sac?).

As for the the "sackman", he is supposed to grab the kids and pop 'em into his sack with the following rhyme:

Dentro del saco irás y dentro del saco morirás or words to that effect.


Quote
DRAE:
manteca

(De or. inc.).

1. f. Producto obtenido por el batido, amasado y posterior maduración de la crema extraída de la leche de vaca o de otros animales. Manteca de vaca, de oveja.

2. f. Grasa consistente de algunos frutos, como la del cacao.

3. f. Gordura de los animales, especialmente la del cerdo.

4. f. Gordura del cuerpo humano.

5. f. Sustancia grasa con ingredientes usada como afeite o medicamento, pomada.

6. f. Nata de la leche.

The following Spanish Wikipedia article - ostensibly reporting a true event (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_hombre_del_saco) - although if y'all thought that the English Wikipedia was excessively unreferenced or poorly-sourced, you should not visit Wikipedia in other languages. Mind you, I'm not saying that such things didn't happen - in fact I'm sure they did - it's just the poorness of the sourcing that gets me most, together with the attempt to make it look well-referenced and well-documented (the stuff of most urban myths, etc.)

Hope y'all be able to sleep well tonight >:D
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: lucy on September 25, 2007, 22:06 PM
Thanks Simon, that one escaped.  Please point out any other lapses into hybrid-speak.

TP, the info you’ve found suggests a Bill Sykes type of Mantequero, quite easy to believe in, especially when times were hard.  The impression given by Brenan in “South of Granada” is of a more supernatural figure.  I’ve dug it out and here’s a quote:

“a mantequero is a ferocious monster, shaped outwardly like a man, that lives in wild uninhabited places and feeds on human manteca, or fat.  When brought to bay it makes a shrill, whinnying sound, and, except when recently gorged with food, it is thin and emaciated.”    That’s why the gypsies thought Brenan’s friend was one – they found him walking about in the barrancos, he was producing strange unintelligible sounds, and was skinny.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: shiner on September 26, 2007, 18:18 PM
THE SPANISH LABYRINTH BY GERALD BRENAN   CONSIDERED TO BE A CLASSIC ACCOUNT OF THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL BACK GROUND OF THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR AND ALL THE OTHER PREVIOUS UP RISINGS, GETS RIGHT TO THE "NITTY GRITTY2 AVAILABLE ON LINE FROM WWW. PLAT.COM 24 EUROS DELIVERY F.O.C.
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on October 04, 2007, 06:56 AM
Now here’s me feeling guilty again! I’ve promised to catch up on this thread but have been sadly waylaid for too long, so another typical Simon post trying to discuss a whole host of issues.

Firstly; I only let slip about the psychology thing as a quip between me and Teeps. I wouldn’t want anyone to feel that I’m claiming to be any sort of authority here, it’s just that it’s the degree wot I took like and, in passing, scraped through by the skin of my teeth! In fact I only did that because during my twenties, in those days before Thatcher, I realised that middle class kids actually got paid to sit around smoking and talking about sex (and occasional a bit more!), which seemed like paradise to me!

I do know some of my stuff, however, and I think there is a world of difference between an individual’s needs to come-to-terms-with, address, etc. their trauma, and a whole society’s need to reconcile itself with the past. Moreover, within each of these fields of concern there are many schools of thought regarding ‘treatment’ or the path to resolution. These range from the psychoanalytical, which suggests that only by exploring and uncovering the past can the pain endured in the present be ‘resolved’, to the pragmatic approaches such as behavioural and cognitive psychology, whose modus operandi focus on examining issues as they are experienced in the here and now, and a whole lot of others in between. One very important point here is that none of these approaches are entirely ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ but complement each other depending not only on the nature of the ‘problem’ but also on the personality of the individual. So it’s a big mistake to generalise that the past should be raked over in order resolve the present. I’m thinking of a sad film I saw a few years ago made by a second-generation refugee from New York who returned to Galicia to investigate the village atrocity. She dug and dug, eventually even interviewing the local uniformed thug who’d ordered the dastardly deeds, by then a very old man. She ended by returning to her cousins with all of this evidence of the past; documents, old newspaper articles, etc. plus the address of the cop and the interview on tape. The camera carried on rolling while the cousins shuffled their feet and looked away in embarrassment and pain until eventually a senior uncle simply asked her to go away. This is an example of bad ethics. I suspect that what was going on was a combination of the filmmaker’s need to address her own ‘stuff’, as they say, plus the fact that the film was in the running for a prize back in the U.S., which is really bad ethics!

It seems to be quite a common experience for us foreigners to be selected for a bit of memory cleansing because we are neutral and by definition somewhat apart. I suppose the least we can do is respect and honour the confidence. A final note; I’ll never forget a point made in a lecture by the late R.D. Laing, a very radical thinker indeed, on the subject of mental health, who said, “Cure? Isn’t that something you do with bacon?” to illustrate that perhaps the whole paradigm is mistaken. There are some things that simply don’t get better, like bereavement, but we can come to terms with as, ultimately, they are experiences that sooner or later we will all share.

Now my head hurts, so on to other things:

The uniformed bogeymen; my first encounter with Spain/Spanish cops was at Alicante airport in 1983 and they didn’t faze me at all – rather the opposite as they slouched around smoking and chatting! Having said that we were used to armed police as we used to spend  quite some time in Germany and Holland (and the German polis are really freaky!) so armed police weren’t a new sight at all. Plus the fact that the early Thatcher years coincided with my own most formative period, so when you think of that era; the Falklands war and above all the miners’ strike (when, for those of you who weren’t around, Thatcher had army units dressed up as policemen the better to thrash the colliers into submission). In my naivety I suppose that I arrived in Spain during one of the liberal spells of the early post Franco period. In fact just the other day I learned to my horror how recently political brutality and imprisonment occurred; one of our best friends described how she was chased into a stair well by two coppers and beaten black and blue and senseless, spending two weeks in hospital while all the men folk were banged up. The point is that she is only 43, so while I was grooving away up a mountain and dreaming finca dreams, all this bad stuff was going down in the cities!

The non-uniformed bogeymen. A big thanks for this Techno and Lucy; I had a brilliant ‘charla’ last Sunday when I asked by Catalan Vermut circle about El Mantequero. None of them had ever heard of him, just as Lucy described, but they launched straight into the Catalan  ‘El home del Sac’ and, after a short discourse on our own ‘Sandman’, whom everyone thought was really horrific (my version steals children’s eyes if he catches them awake!) to a brilliant evil/good character called the Cagatió which is a small wooden animalistic stature with four feet. In the days leading up to Christmas the children have to propitiate the deity with gifts of food, especially oranges and tangerines, whose remnants are spat out during the night. My friend described how terrified she was that the Cagatió would grab her hand while she was leaving the offering! The good news was that on Christmas morning all the gifts came back with interest, and the last ‘caga’ was always a bonbon!

Regs

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on October 04, 2007, 14:39 PM
Greetings Simon and All,
Guilt, Simon?  Now what exactly ... >:D
Having made the wonderful discovery that whilst lolling (laughing out loud) about 'ere at this great iberianatureforum and bandying innocent words with other like(?)-minded weirdos iberianatureforumers I was able indulge in a bit of escapism aka to keep out of harm's way aka keep out from under feet/penetrating gaze of psychologist/therapist partner* - I now find myself trying to come to terms with the shock of finding out that my original reading 'tween the lines/gut-feeling re. some of Simon's qualms was on track. Nothing like having to confront the truth when it comes out. Question is, what does one do with it once it's out? So which way to turn? Every which way but loose :dancing:

Returning to how to deal with confidences - speaking off the top of me 'ead, not being a therapist, nor a Catholic nor having undergone therapy, yet, - the fact of being able to tell another "chosen one" of one's fears, crimes, etc., and not be judged for them, must necessarily "cleanse the soul" and therefore make one a stronger (better?) person. In the case of my late Grandmother-in-law, she had learnt (?) to live with the death of her sons and other tragedies in her life and outwardly bore no grudges. But she always insisted in prevention - as in education - rather than justice - as in an eye for an e. and that however terrible war is per se., there's nothing worse than a civil war, as the level of distrust among family, friends, workmates, neighbours, etc. is absolute. In other forms, there is often/usually a common enemy, an external factor which unites rather than divides.

*reached the conclusion many years ago that our long-lasting relationship must be due to Mrs T using me as a benchmark with which to compare some of her more "difficult" cases and that it helps her become a better person and professional.

Ramblin'-again regs.,
Technopat

PS.
Sorry for keeping off the Ib. Pen. track, but I need clarification on at least one issue, as I am indirectly alluded to in the following:
Quote
and above all the miners’ strike (when, for those of you who weren’t around, Thatcher had army units dressed up as policemen the better to thrash the colliers into submission).

No, I wasn't - fortunately - one of the miners (or the others), but I was already living in Spain and there was zero coverage in Spanish press on anything going on abroad - around that time Spain was going through its own reconversión - so I only got to hear of it indirectly and as old news. Is the above actually documented or is it an "I-can-well-believe-it" urban myth?

PPS.
Re. digging down and uncovering heaps of nasty stuff - Mrs T once told me re. hypnosis as a therapy that it was truly dangerous if not used correctly 'cos people first need to be taught how to cope with stuff before being confronted with said stuff and that needless to say, many/most hypnotherapists were not sufficiently professional to be doing what they were doing. But I'll stop now, 'cos the stories I could tell ... belong to a different kind of forum.

PPPS:
Simon, as a curious bystander from Madrid :technodevil:, I feel the need to ask for your interpretation of the Catalan obsession with Cagatió and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer)s?
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on October 05, 2007, 10:40 AM
Hi TP and other historians,

I take your point about the possible mythology surrounding the miners’ strike. I suppose the definitive evidence won’t emerge until the relevant thirty-years disclosure comes around. Although I suppose there must by now be respectable histories written on the subject it’s not my field of interest thee days and I simply don’t trust things like Wikipedia on such matters, if indeed any others! My opinions were based on TV documentaries which came about around that time and testimonies by actual miners who did the rounds of university student unions giving lectures and raising funds for the soup kitchens that the mining communities became dependent on as the strike went on and on. So, for what it’s worth the evidence came in various forms, and I’m sure TV news archive coverage can bear this out:

1) The ‘special’ units arrived at the battlefields pitheads in separate transport, the normal police had their own.
2) Unlike normal coppers they didn’t wear identity numbers on their ‘uniforms’ and these latter did not comply with those of the forces, e.g. the Met, West Mercia Constabulary, etc. who were known to have been drafted in (on amazing overtime rates!); even fatigues bore the insignia of the different forces and the officer’s number stitched onto the collar.
3) They didn’t work alongside the regular units and didn’t use standard equipment or procedures, like sporting riot shields and baton charges, rather they romped in straight hand-to-hand combat.
4) This is funny if it wasn’t so sad; if one lost his helmet in the fray he instantly bolted out of view of the cameras. Why? You can tell a British squaddy’s scalp a mile away that’s why! Those were the days of absolutely appalling haircuts (see What Ever Happened to the Likely Lads!) and the police, only human after all, were particularly susceptible to bouffant, backcombing and, above all, sideburns!

Bringing the point back to the thread (about time, I hear you all cry) there’s a general point that control of the media distorts history to the extent that people’s view of it is completely distorted, so the word ‘truth’ loses any meaning In an objective way, and only has any value at all as the subjective reality for individuals. Which is why the manipulation of history is such a serious subject and censorship, especially the self-censorship practised by people working within systems like academia or the press or even Internet forums, is a subject about which I am especially prickly – as some of you know!

In Spain, the lack of a consistent ‘truth’ is one reason why there is such a huge problem with personal and communal reconciliation. I made the point earlier that bereavement, however painful it is to suffer, is not an ‘illness’ and should not be subject to ‘treatment’, and that the objective ‘cure’ is misplaced. I think this holds true for victims in general and victims of the Civil War in particular. The main argument against this being that as the cause/object of the loss is out of the ordinary run of life, so that it can be classified as an illness process, like we nowadays accept Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome as being a ‘normal’ reaction to overwhelming and unusual events, hence the squads of psychologists drafted in after the Atocha bombings. This is a very cogent argument indeed, but I think there is mileage in assessing the extent to which time has passed in thinking that this is a useful approach. Put simply, is an undeniable history suitable for consideration as an illness, and thus susceptible to a whole battery of treatments, or (and it’s not a black and while issue of course, this is just for the sake of argument) should the past be left to itself and itself be the healer?

Now my head really hurts! I want above all else to immerse myself in Techno’s question about the, shall we say, earthiness of the Catalan psyche, i.e. cagatiós, etc. Methinks this really does belong on another thread, so when I’ve had my rest cure I’ll pick it up there!

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on October 05, 2007, 14:05 PM
Greetings Simon and All,
Don't get me wrong (Sp. anyone?) Simon re. urban myths/miners' strikes - I am all too ready to believe it - was anything beyond her determination to impose her own beliefs on a willing nation? Reason I ask is that I need facts to help me in my frequent conversations with Spaniards brought up to believe that the Thatcher years* were the best thing since sliced bread (same generation who has no idea/interest in knowing what led up to the Sp. civil war or what went on afterwards).

*remember that great expression "shareholder society"?  :technodevil:

Regs. from a self-imposed exile expat from the very early Thatcher years :dancing:
Technopat

PS.
Yer term "earthiness" does explain at least the pagan aspects of the Catalan psyche, Simon  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on October 05, 2007, 18:33 PM
Greetings Xoë and All,
Many people are speaking highly of Almudena Grandes’ latest novel (El corazón helado, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_coraz%C3%B3n_helado (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_coraz%C3%B3n_helado), 2007, Tusquets) which is built around extensive personal accounts.

Another writer whose stuff I haven’t read, but I have on good authority that his stuff is very depressingly descriptive of the war years and posterior concentration camps, is Max Aub, who was a writer/intellectual (responsible for buying Picasso’s Guernica for the Paris Expo) http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Aub (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Aub).

Regs,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on October 12, 2007, 00:32 AM
Greetings All,
Just had an interesting conversation re. books on Spanish Civil War and there follows a list of recommended reading of both history books and novels, given me by a Spanish historian, plus Wikipedia links. Apologies for any repetitions.

Novels:
La plaza de diamante by Mercè Rodoreda http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_plaza_del_Diamante (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_plaza_del_Diamante)

Enterrar a los muertos by Ignacio Martínez de Pisón http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacio_Mart%C3%ADnez_de_Pis%C3%B3n#Literatura (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacio_Mart%C3%ADnez_de_Pis%C3%B3n#Literatura)

El diario de Hamlet García by Paulino Masip http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulino_Masip#Literatura (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulino_Masip#Literatura)

Los girasoles ciegos by Alberto Méndez http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_M%C3%A9ndez (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_M%C3%A9ndez)

History books:
The Spanish Civil War by Paul Preston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Preston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Preston)
Franco – Paul Preston

Las Brigadas Internacionales by Luigi Longo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Longo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Longo)

The Spanish Civil War by Antony Beevor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor)

The Spanish Republic at War, 1936-1939 by Helen Graham, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2002

La soledad de la República and El escudo de la República by Ángel Viñas http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81ngel_Vi%C3%B1as

The Spanish Labyrinth: An Account of the Social and Political Background of the Civil War by Gerald Brenan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenan)

Regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: nick on October 16, 2007, 15:49 PM
Many thanks for that Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on October 16, 2007, 21:10 PM
Hii

Tonight on Canal6 which I suspect is Murcia only again there is to be "el debate" concerning la historia memoria of the Franco period with  two people talking about their parents' personal histories and then discussion with  reps of PP PSOE  communists and a professor emeritus of a (I think) theological institute.  Shame I done have Spanish tv but there is a website I think.
SueMac
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Jill on October 27, 2007, 14:49 PM
Hola

The books have arrived, and Xoë is gobbling them up. Before they arrived I whetted her appetite for Hemingway by describing some of the incidents - and so this was one of the first that she tucked into. After she was through, she said, "You got it all wrong. That stuff you talked about wasn't by Hemingway." Furthermore, she then told me where it was to be found: in Antoine de St Exupery's Wind, Sand and Stars.

I've checked this out, and Xoë was right: Chapter 9 - Barcelona and Madrid 1936.
St Ex evidently spent a few weeks here and visited the front. He makes very astute observations - but comes out of the experience still not understanding why the Spanish were willing to kill each other / die for their ideologies. One of the most chilling and perturbing incidents is the one where he went out with some Republicans on a night patrol. They knew that the enemy was on the other side of the valley - and they knew the enemy as friends. The men called greetings to each other across the darkness and the void.

St Ex was an absolutely brilliant writer, and this chapter shows him at his very finest. It's a very troubling account. Possibly the most troubling questions are these: "Are the people who lived like this the same as the Spanish of today? Could these, our friends, who seem much like us, fight in the same way, against one another?"
And secondly, "Are the Spanish different, or can all people behave in this insane way?"
I don't know about the first question, but I think that the answer to the second is, NO. In a way the civil war mentality seems to have been oddly like the fiesta mentality. Give everything for the moment.

Jill
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on October 29, 2007, 16:02 PM
Greetings All,
This kind of posting is necessarily going to be even more long-winded than normal ones >:D.
Treading warily and carefully here as it is clear the forum is being read by ever-more people from all over the world and passions can run very high on this particular topic, as will also become increasingly evident, I'm sure. We've already met up with the perfectly valid opinion of both Spanish and non-Spanish people re. what a bunch of weirdo non-Spaniards are doing "interfering" in Spanish matters. Matters so apparently non-controversial as the ecological effects of building golf courses in unsuitable places.
Whilst it is impossible to completely detach oneself fully from one's beliefs and pre-conceived ideas, whether these are culturally imposed or reached at through personal reflection - and personally I don't believe anyone who says they can -, I have been here many years trying, admittedly in my more despondent moments, to understand how and why members of the same family in a modern society are willing to kill each other for an idea. Personally, I can't understand the "need" to kill, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it's part of human nature, a genetically-inherited trait from some primitive ancestor. As I mentioned elsewhere, one of the more interesting aspects of being a resident foreigner here is that the most unlikely people are willing to open up and talk of, and give their opinions on, things which I'm sure they've been holding back on for years.

I've heard dozens of versions from both sides and from all walks of life regarding the causes and effects of the Spanich Civil War. And in each case, I have had no reason to doubt the version told me - each person tells his or her own reality as they see/live it. I have also read many "official" documents and am at present reading the memoirs of Franco's head of the navy during and after the war. Makes depressing reading and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. The hatred with which he speaks of the vile murder of his own troops (actually he only mentions the officers), while whenever his guys kill a rojo it is all for the glory of the Patria, is curious, to say the least. As has been pointed out once or twice already, there were atrocities committed by both sides - and each side justifies them as they can - it does seem that a large number of the civilian deaths among supporters of the Republic were the result of "officially" sanctioned death squads from the Falange carrying out actions and orders from above whereas the large number of civilian deaths among supporters of Franco were the result of uncontrolled deaths squads which were specifically condemned by the authorities.

Apart from the inherently violent nature of the matter, one apparently insignificant thing that gets my goat on these issues is that all these people of honour who love their Patria so much and then come to power through a coup d'etat (itself a criminal act) - Franco, Pinochet, etc. - all swearing allegiance to the government they serve only months before overthrowing it and taking forceful control of its institutions. And of course, by coincidence it's years before they can get the country's approval through elections - not that that is all that difficult to arrange. How can anybody consider them persons of honour and support them if it were not for their own personal gain?

Way too long and I haven't even started with what I was going to write.

Regs.,
Technopat

PS.
In answer to Jill's questions re. present-day Spaniards vs. Spaniards in the past, speaking in general terms, and not specifically about Spain, I think that given the right caldo de cultivo (En. anyone?), history is more than able to repeat itself and will in fact repeat itself. The atrocities, etc. we get to hear of every day are proof of this and wherever and whenever the next conflict breaks out, some will be for it and others against it, and intelligent people on both sides will argue ably in defence of their postitions. The more conservative elements I listen to here say that Zapatero has managed to create exactly the same level of division in the country as existed at the time of the República "and we all know what that led to", while the less conservative people say that Spain is now a modern country, has nothing to do with the levels of poverty and injustice, etc. existing in Spain in those days and that it's time the conservatives stop looking to the past and start thinking positive about the future. Needless to say, Technopat belongs to the group of those that think ...
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Clive on October 29, 2007, 16:18 PM
This topic has become an excellent resource for anyone searching for literature on the history of the Spanish civil war

I have started a new topic http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,863.0.html

In order to discuss further the Spanish civil war and what it means in the present. (re Jill's last question and Tp's answer)

Clive



Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: SueMac on November 22, 2007, 15:54 PM
I came upon the sonnet writer Miguel Hernandez (1910 -1942) while looking for candidates for my alternative list of famous Spanish people. He was apparently a poor goatherd/pastor born in Alicante province. Considered to have written his best sonnets when imprisoned during the civil war.  I have gathered together a little about him. Considered to be a surrealist some of his  titles intrigue:

I live in shadow filled with light.... 
The bull knows at the end of running strife...
He came with three wounds...(Llego con tres heridas.....)
The latter was recorded by Joan Baez on her album 'Gracias a la vida)
SueMac
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on January 09, 2008, 20:33 PM
Greetings All,
Hadn't meant to write about this Xmas present book until I had finished reading it - in fact I haven't even started it (am actually re-reading As I walked out ... which I bought for myself recently at the iberianature bookshop :dancing: - but I just walked past it on the way into the hall, and picked it up, skipped over the Foreword by José Saramago and read the opening paragraphs - and for the first time in my life the opening paragraph of a book has sent a chill down/up my spine.

Let me explain first of all that the book was given to me by Mrs TP after recently seeing the author interviewed on TV - she says that she has rarely seen such a complete human being (for those of you new to the forum, she's a psychologist and tends to have an insight into such things) and that she was held spellbound by the man. He was one of the first people in which Amnesty International (set up in 1961) took an interest.

OK, so here goes with the opening paras.:

Quote
Fue el 17 de noviembre de 1961 (...) Franco había dado un decretazo que fue más bien un brindis al sol. Anunció la libertad automática para todos los presos políticos que llevaran más de 20 años encarcelados de manera ininterrumpida.

En ese momento, de los 465 presos que había entonces sólo en el penal de Burgos, yo era el único que cumplía ese requisito.

The book is:
Decidme cómo es un árbol by Marcos Ana, published by Umbriel Editores - Tabla Rasa

Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on January 12, 2008, 22:04 PM
Hi Teeps et al,
I'm really moved by that quote above. What stuck me also is the publishers' series, 'tabla rasa' which is a phrase that I remember from psychology training as 'tabula rasa' i.e. a clean table,(clean sheet in English) not meaning to brush things under the carpet but in the sense of a new learning experience, cognitive wise.

I'm rambling, but the moment deems it, sorry.

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: John on February 29, 2008, 02:03 AM
Hello folks....haven't been here for a while, but just caught up with this thread and found it fascinating.

 I'd like to  mention the latest book by Jason Webster "Guerra"

 One of the best books I have read about the Civil War. Easy to read and not hard going like some of the others.  Paul Preston ( author of "Doves of War" ) says "Perhaps only a foreigner, and a foreigner who lives in Spain, could give a truly accurate picture of how the memory of the Civil War still dominates so many people's lives in the country. In all its glare and gloom, this is what Jason Webster's vivid and perceptive journey through the tortured memory of modern Spain provides"

This book gave me a much better understanding of the war and its aftermath than anything else I have read.

 I have a DVD of the six hour Granada TV series on the Civil War made in 1983 as well as a copy of the film made by Orson Welles in 1936...."Spanish Earth". I'm sure we could find a way of sharing it if anyone is interested. Would also like to recommend the film "Pan's Labyrinth"

and Gerald Brennans book "Spanish Labyrinth"

Contact me here or  through my website http://www.tuktuktours.co.uk/links.htm
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on October 07, 2009, 00:34 AM
Greetings All,
As part of my campaign to keep old threads alive (?) here's a link I came across today referring to the 25th anniversary of the death of Franco:
El País Digital (http://www.elpais.com/especiales/2000/franco/vicent.htm) OK, so it's coming up for 10 years since it was published, and yours truly read it first time round, but for newcomers to Spain and for future iberianatureforumers interested in recent history it helps shed light on (Sp. anyone?) undeniably the leading figure in Spain's contemporary history, and who was directly and indirectly responsible for much of what still goes on here...

Of course, most of the writers contributing are well-known rojos, so whatever they have to say/write on the subject should be taken with a pinch of salt (Sp. anyone?)... :technodevil:

"Those-who-cannot-remember-the-past-are-condemned-to-repeat-it."* regs.,
Technopat

*George Santayana, Spanish-born poet and philosopher
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on December 01, 2009, 10:27 AM
Hi Teeps, John, et al,

Many thanks for revitalising this threat kapitán! I really liked the El Pais article, the quote from Franco's farewell speech to the Condor Legion says it all,  "Podéis volver a vuestra patria con orgullo. Los españoles nunca olvidaremos que Carlos V era un rey alemán", no wonder Hitler preferred a visit to the dentist!

Thanks too, John, for your excellent resource, what a lot of hard work you've done - it puts my feeble efforts to shame! I'm curious to see the Jason Webster book, I stumbled across his 'Duende' a few years ago in a charity shop and bought it - awwwwwful! What's the book's structure, is it a straight history or another of the 'personal journey*' genre?

Talking of book recommendations, I think Brennon is still essential reading, especially as it is an 'eye witness' or at least a contemporary account. But for a straight history I'm well impresed with Beevor's 'The Battle for Spain'; essential reading for the beginner, with the bare bones of the conflict given in  detail.

Back on the contemporay side, I highly recommend Franz Borkenau's 'The Spanish Cockpit', first published in 1937. It is based on the author's visits here in 1936 and again in early '37. 'Blood of Spain', by Ronald Fraser** (1979) is a fascinating account based on the oral histories of eye witnesses - an unrepeatable excercise now of course!

The latter two books are pretty rare items I'd imagine. I found them during an extreme buying binge visit to Hay-on-Wye a few years ago - a trove well worth the excess baggage!

Regs

Simon

* not that there's anythig wrong with this genre, just the way it's done sometimes!

** not the actor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fraser) Mr Teeps!
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: elmussol on January 14, 2010, 23:26 PM
Just discovered this thread and promise to read it all before posting again. Oh dear, I feel an essay coming on...

pault

...who happens to be reading Hugh Thomas' 1986 revision of The Spanish Civil War at the moment. I picked it up in an anarchist bookshop in Amsterdam last September, which is cool in a wierd way, because he obviously really can't stand anarchists.

Poke me in a month if I haven't posted something a little more substantial. Or don't if you couldn't care less ;-)
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on January 15, 2010, 08:52 AM
Hi Pault, et al,

Well done Pault on (re?) reading this book, one I should keep my eye out for I guess. I love the irony of your finding it, I found my best my cache of Civil War books in Hay-on.Wye, a big contrast in the 'lived' and the 'studied' environment! One question - what were you doing in an anarchist bookshop in Amsterdam?  :technodevil:

Strance coincidences time: today, January 15th, is the anniversary of the fall of the city of Tarragona to the Nationalists. This time last year (the 70th anniversary) there was a very moving exhibition of photographs that Franc Kappa  took during the evacualtion. Kappa followed the evacuation right along the coast. As well as some classic Kappa stuff, there was an interesting exhibition of memorabilia - I had no idea that the Republican army had uniforms - let alone very stylish ones! - although that gap in my knowledge is rapidly closing as I work my way through the books mentioned above (I'm a slow reader!) which relate the changes in the Republican forces at eye witness level, as the war progressed.

But the most moving part of the exhibition was the scenes in the streets of the city itself - the people were running scared along the same shopping steets and boulevards that I use daily (Ramon i Cajal and the Rambla Nova) and the crying children could well have been the parents of many of my friends!

Tragic stuff!

Regs

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: shiner on January 15, 2010, 18:08 PM
Hi Jill, read Orwells Cataluna wotsit, Brendon thingys but got a better read and enjoyed Ghosts of Spain much more, in English by an English journalist living in Madrid sorry forgotten his name
Regards Shiner
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: elmussol on January 15, 2010, 20:45 PM
Well done Pault on (re?) reading this book, one I should keep my eye out for I guess.

First read. I was prompted to read it because someone bought me his The Slave Trade: The History of the Atlantic Slave Trade 1440–1870 for my birthday a couple of years ago (and a fascinating read for those interested in another aspect of Iberian history). He turned out to be not as right wing (at least in his historical writing) as a lover of she who must not be named might be expected to be. More on this and associated topics in my longer post...

Quote
I love the irony of your finding it, I found my best my cache of Civil War books in Hay-on.Wye, a big contrast in the 'lived' and the 'studied' environment! One question - what were you doing in an anarchist bookshop in Amsterdam?  :technodevil:

Erm... buying books of general interest to your average anarchist, like me. I also, amongst other things, picked up The Ex -- 1936: The Spanish Revolution (http://www.theex.nl/disco/1936.htm), which has a wonderful book full of photos and quotes (see, not only back ontopic but back to original point of thread). I was in Amsterdam to watch baseball if that clarifies anything ;-)

pault (privately pleased to get an anarchopunk reference in and stay on topic)
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on January 16, 2010, 09:44 AM
Mornin' all,

Excellent on topic link there Pault - liked the videos - Eco punk alive and well I see! - and a good thing too!

Shiner, 'Ghosts of Spain' was written by Giles Tremett, the Gruniad's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruniad) 'man in Spain' It is an excellent book, even though it appears to have been written by a chronic off-topic-wanderer. I wonder whether it's the air? - or the vino tinto  :technodevil:

Regs

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on January 30, 2010, 16:17 PM
Greetings All,
Thanks for keeping this thread going - we owe it to all the innocent lives taken during the Spanish Civil War - and any other armed conflict, for that matter - to make sure that the powers-that-be don't get the chance to forget their hypocrisy, evilness and cowardice, etc.

Marcos Ana, who I mentioned on this thread almost exactly 2 years ago, celebrated his  90th birthday "Marcos Ana, 90 años de edad y 67 de vida" El País (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/Marcos/Ana/90/anos/edad/67/vida/elpepiesp/20100121elpepinac_10/Tes)

Lest-we-forget regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on February 01, 2010, 12:26 PM
Mornin' scholars,

Nice to see you back up and runnin' Professor T! I've finished  Borkenau's 'The Spanish Cockpit' (1937) and I'm building up a head of steam to plough through 'Blood of Spain', by Ronald Fraser (1979). Both very interesting books, but I'm beginning to get Civil War fatigue! Does anyoe know of a good history in English of the posguerra? The nearest I've got to one is the Preston biography of Franco. But by the time I get to the post-war period I have Franco fatigue too and I've still not finished that book after I don't know how many years!

Regs

Simon

PS Pault - I haven't read Hugh Thomas, but I don't thnk you need to be a supporter of she-who-must-not-be-named-and-is-best-forgotten-like-a-bad-dream to be well and truly p****d off with the Anarchists!
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on November 18, 2010, 11:30 AM
Greetings All,
I think I forgot to add the following to the must-read list:

Preston, Paul We Saw Spain Die - Foreign correspondents in the Spanish Civil War Constable (2008)

Gives an interesting insight into the importance of press censorship & propaganda and its repercussions.
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2010, 10:47 AM
Nice one Teeps, I'll have to keep an eye out for it on my next trip to Barna, which should be sooner rather than later to avoid excess coocoo-ing  >:D

Meanwhile, I've just started Eric Hobsbawn's 'Age of Extremes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Extremes)', his history of what he calls the Short Twentieth Century, i.e. from the start of WW1 to the demise of socialism, i.e. 1991. One of the intereretsing points made in the introduction is that Hobsbawm regards the entire period from 1914 to 1945 as one continuous conflict, including the Spanish Civil War of course, which he discusses later in the book.

We are fairly familiar with the arguement that WW2 began in July 1936, espoused by Preston, et al, and I'm interested to see if Hobsbawm makes a similar arguement for other conflicts in the '30's, e.g. Japan/China (1931 onwards) and Italy/Abyssinia (1935/6). I certainly feel the need to take a fresh look at the wider context in which the SCW took place.

Long evenings lie ahead!

Simon  :booklook:
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Rosie on November 20, 2010, 11:04 AM
I have just fished 'Ghosts of Sain' off the book shelf. Hubby bought it a few years ago but we have never got round to reading it. Very remiss of us, I know.

I daren't open it yet as I am supposed to be doing the ironing, and if I start reading I will lose all track of the time, but this thread has inspired me to start it later today.

Muchas gracias.

Rosie
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on November 20, 2010, 11:16 AM
Hi Rosie,

'Ghosts of Spain' is an excellent book in general and a great introduction to the subject of the SCW in partricular, especially how the long shadow of the War reaches right down to the present day. Giles Tremlet, who is also the Guardian's main Spanish correspondent, also writes amusingly, and indeed informatively, on his own life in Spain, a treatment that makes an otherwise seriously heavy subject accessible to ordinary blokes like me!

So let the ironing go hang for a while and get reading - after all, a few wrincles don't do my sartorial image too much harm  :technodevil:

Simes
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: andyj on November 20, 2010, 13:21 PM
not sure if this had been brought up in this fabulous thread, Im still going through it myself, but don't forget about the art of the Civil war, particularly Goya. His story not only his art is fantastic, though he does tend towards the darker side...like the best of 'em.

Andy
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on November 25, 2010, 17:48 PM
Hi Andy et al,

What a great contribution to this thread - war art in general is fascinating and deeply moving no matter what the medium.

Thinking about painting in the Spanish Civil War we obviously see Picasso's 'Guernika' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_%28painting%29) as the archetypal image. But I'm not sure this is quite the case, for a start one doesn't think of Picasso as a 'war artist' as such. Moreover, I'm not sure but I think that Guernika was Picasso's only war painting, and, furthermore, it can also been seen as a protest about the nature and threat of 'modern' warfare in general as much as about the specific incident, or even the Spanish Civil War in particular - although I accept that this is probabaly more pertinent to later 'career' of the painting itself as an icon.

Goya, on the other hand, although an established portrait artist to the Spanish Court from about 1783, is equally remembered for his series' of realistic war paintings, The Black Paintings and especially The Disasters of War, which are what you are referring to I guess, painted during and after the Spanish War of Independence (1808-14) - known to British historians as the Peninsular war. I came across a collection of these, and the Capricios, by accident when I first visited the Prado in Madrid. The experience was profound to say the least and I think of it still, around twenty years later!

Sadly, Goya was long gone by the time of the Civil War we are talking about in this thread, but that doesn't stop the importance of war imagery in history. I wonder if one of the features of the Civil War was the emerging power of Photo-journalism, which, if not actually invented, stikes me as coming of age at this time: the images left by the likes of Robert Capa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Capa) still hold in the collective memory I think, or maybe just in mine!

I don't know of any newsreel images of the Civil War that have anything like the impact of the huge archive from Second World War though -I wonder if this is due to the technology, i.e. robust lightweight movie cameras, not being up to scratch at the time. Or, more cynically, media moguls not considering the War sufficiently important to commit such a new, and presumeable expensive, resource for perhaps scant commercial returns (newsreels, such as Pathé News were lucrative commercial enterprises).

Developing this point a little further: I wonder if many wars generated, or are best remembered, by specific artictic media or genres? The poetry of the Great War strikes me as being essential to understandimng the experience and impact of the war on its generation, likewise epic poems, such as Tennyson's Charge of the Light Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade) paints a profoundly different picture of warfare!

The art of war correspondents is well known to have developled enormously in the Spanish Civil War, as the earlier posts in this threat readily testify, but these also raise isues of the effectiveness, of lack, of censorship in various theatres of war -the paucity of correspndence from the Nationalist side of the front lines is important here I think.

Moving on a few generations, a little closer to home - "About time!" I hear you cry! - the Vietnam war is now remebered best, perhaps, in terms of the genre of anti-war movies such as Apocalyse Now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_Now) or Coming Home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_Home), which had an an enormous impact on the thinking of one contemporary young adolescent  :angel:

Phew! I'd better get off this one now before my brain needs a service!

Thanks one again Andy for such a thought proviking idea!

Regs

Simon


Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on November 26, 2010, 01:17 AM
Greetings All,
As so often the case, Simon's latest opens up too many fronts to deal with in one go, so will try not to let myself be led astray and will do me utmost to stick to the point. :noidea:

Regarding Picasso, a significant detail many folks seem to not attach much importance to, is that he was appointed director of the Prado shortly after the outbreak of the SCW, an honour of which he was rightly proud. It has been pretty much acknowledged by the nobs that his greatest influences, among many other major influences, include El Greco, Veláquez and Goya, and he was particularly influenced by Goya up until Guernica (1937) and again in the later part of his life, from the 50s on.

While neither El Greco nor Veláquez seemed to been especially interested in portraying the horrors of war, Picasso's Masacre en Corea (1951) is clearly inspired by Goya's El 3 de mayo de 1808 en Madrid. Los fusilamientos de la montaña del Principe Pío (1814). His oeuvre (Sp. anyone?), apart from the 60-odd sketches and other drawings he made around the theme of Guernica, which contains clear references to Goya's Desastres de la guerra, the 3 de mayo mentioned above, and El dos de mayo de 1808 en Madrid. La carga de los mamelucos, also clearly includes major anti-war statements with El Osario (1945) and Monumento a los españoles muertos por Francia (1945-47) provoked by the Second World War; La Guerra y La Paz (1952) and the series El rapto de las sabinas (1962), the latter provoked by the Cuban missile crisis.

Likewise, in his Les Lettres français Picasso wrote (my free translation): "Paintings are not for decorating houses. They are an instrument of offensive and defensive war against the enemy" (March 1943)

Regarding "the impact of the huge archive from Second World War" vs SCW coverage, Simon's cynicism is, in my opinion, fully justified. The greater part of The Establishment in both the US and the UK were frankly pro-Franco, and while the media moguls hedged their bets at the beginning by sending out correspondents to cover both "bandos", it soon became pretty clear that they were coming down clearly on the side of the insurgents. I vaguely remember both the Republic and Franco having produced propaganda films and don't forget that La 2, especially, regularly shows footage of the day. If anyone is interested in the theme, I strongly recommend you get in there quick, 'cos once the current government is out, I doubt we'll have much chance of seeing documentaries of this kind again...

Regarding Simon's "proviking idea", I'm not sure that the Vikings are quite on-topic here :technodevil: While yours truly stands second to none in his admiration for the "the wrath of the norsemen", and, contrary to what most Spaniards will acknowledge, Vikings made several raids on the Ib. Pen. - and even held Seville under siege for a couple of weeks - I humbly suggest we start a separate thread for 'em.

Jeez-is-that-the-time? regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on November 26, 2010, 02:00 AM
Greetings All,
Regarding the pictorial coverage mentioned above, while catching up on me backlog of reading, have just come across this snippet Nick posted earlier this year:
Iberia Nature: Was Gerda Taro murdered? (http://iberianature.com/spain_culture/2010/06/05/was-gerda-taro-murdered/)

So-who-else-believes-in-conspiracy-theories? regs.,
Technopat
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Simon on November 26, 2010, 16:27 PM
I knew you'd be there to correct me Professor Technopat! And corrected I well and truly stand! I knew that Picasso was seriously anti-war (and that he was director of the Prado, just didn't have time to mention that snippet!) but hadn't made the connection with further works!

One more thing I forgot: the art of propaganda posters, no contemporary exhibition seems without them being represented these days, but I don't know much more - maybe this is Nick's province?

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Technopat on November 26, 2010, 19:51 PM
Greetings All,
Please note that nothing could be further, etc., etc. than to "correct" Simon :angel: - it's just that I like get a kick outta filling in the gaps and tying up loose ends (Sp. anyone?). Oh, yeah, and I was brought up on one-upmanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-upmanship) and gamesmanship :technodevil:

Re. propaganda posters, I have a vague feeling of having seen one by Picasso somewhere, but probably mistaken, as is my wont. Anybody?

TP
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: Daniel on February 13, 2011, 10:20 AM
There is also a little known and fascinating history of film-making during the civil war. Film-workers on the Republican side collectivised the film industry and made both documnetaries and feature films. Here's an interesting interview on the subject, with French documentary film-maker Richard Prost: http://filmint.nu/?p=323
Title: Re: Spanish civil war
Post by: nick on February 13, 2011, 10:47 AM
Looks very interesting Daniel (and welcome to the forum)

I seem to remember reading that most of the Republic's film industry was based on Montjuic in Barcelona.