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Could Modern African Elephants be considered to be also an animal native to Iber

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Offline steveT

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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 17:43 PM »
Thanks Lisa and TP, for the info on rock art!

steveT

Simon

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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 18:49 PM »
Thanks Steve, now I know. Thanks too to Technpat and Lisa for the rock art!

Simon

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 21:02 PM »
Greetings All,
Technopat feels that this thread hasn't yet run its whatever it is threads run and will be added to in the future.

Lisa - great idea yer non-use of the letter, but TechnoPat does feel rather strongly that the simple letter P can only be considered offensive highly objectionable if repeated, as in Simon's wee wee.

Am currently looking for a thread on which to further develop this theme :technodevil:

Regs.,
TechnoPat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline nick

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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 23:04 PM »
Won't these cave painting be of mammoths?
Nick
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2008, 08:38 AM »
Agreed, Nick - but which came first, the chicken or the egg? I, for one, have lost count of the timelines ...

Meanwhile, notice you haven't yet contributed to our other ongoing rock art thread.

Regs.,
Technopat

PS:
Spain was known as the land of rabbits, not elephants ... nor bulls
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline steveT

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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2008, 21:23 PM »
Dear Lisa and TP,

Is there a date for the 'elephant' image at cueva de castillo? I agee it looks more elephant like. It could be Elephas (Palaeoloxodon) antiquus, an elephant that died out circa 30,000 ya and was very closely related to asian elephants......unlikely though. Also looking at a few preserved baby mammoth images the high head and lump doesn't appear so pronounced, as in adults.......so it could be still be a baby mammoth.........but again I'd go along with you and say it looks more elephant like.

I've been researching ideas on rock art/elephants/iberia/evidence from remains/and even information on north African elephants - there is not much out there.

What there is, is alot of information on elephants and their cousins colonising islands through swimming .... including longer distances ie futher than the Straits of Gibraltar.

Did the odd group swim across, yes this very possible.

Did they stay, breed, return on occassions ....... this is more difficult.

Where would they have resided ...... probably the mildest parts of south western Iberia, near deltas, flood plains, major rivers ......perhaps dispersing at specific times of the year to exploit various food sources ...... living off the mediterranean vegetaion they would have eaten in the northern Maghreb.

steveT

Offline nick

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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2008, 22:42 PM »
This is the thread of the year so far!
Nick
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2008, 01:14 AM »
Greetings steveT, Lisa and All,
Re. steveT's
Quote
looking at a few preserved baby mammoth images the high head and lump doesn't appear so pronounced, as in adults...
and Nick's latest, thinly-veiled attempt at irony notwithstanding, yours truly intends to go off on one of his tangents again and mention another thing that always strikes me 'bout rock art is that we presume the artist had formal training in perspective and other artefacts. Can't remember offhand in which relatively recent century of our modern era painters finally got to grips with such techniques, but until just the other day, things were pretty rough. Likewise, wot say ye 'bout artistic license?
In other words, we take for granted that what they painted corresponds to what we now "know" to have existed then and there - you only have to look at how they represented themselves to see how, shall we say, out-to-lunch they were as far as realism is concerned. I always have misgivings 'bout such circumstancial evidence, as with arqueological findings, when used as gospel for generalising 'bout sizes, shapes, customes, etc.

Admittedly, it's more likely that there is greater variety now than earlier on in the evolutionary timescale, or is it? How many tens/hundreds of thousands of species - including the odd humanoid - have died out over the years? Certainly far more than have developed/evolved.

Too late for developing this, but you get the drift ...

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2008, 14:16 PM »
Paleolithic if I remember rightly steveT.
Tp, I'm not sure about artistic licence but you're not serious are you? Sure they just painted what they saw, but why? Anyone know? Innate artistic yearning? Not the same as licence though  :)
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Offline nick

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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2008, 14:37 PM »
Just in case anybody thinks I was really being ironic

http://www.iberianature.com/spainblog/2008/02/05/elephants-in-spain/
Nick
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Offline pendeen

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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2008, 16:38 PM »
Hi,
No evidence that the "modern African Elephant" colonised Spain but remains of Palaeoloxodon antiquus an extinct member of the elephant family has been found at several sites in Spain.Also remains were found east of lLndon(UK) in 2006.Remains about 400000 years old.
Cheers,
Vince/

Offline Spanish Footsteps

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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2008, 18:31 PM »
Hola amigos

I have not had time to read all of these posts, however if it hasn’t been mentioned yet Ambrona in Soria is a very important archaeological site where elephant remains and other fossils have been found.

One of the most important in Europe

http://archaeology.about.com/od/tterms/g/torralba.htm

http://www.valledeambrona.com/

regards
alfredo
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2008, 07:33 AM »
Hi All, further to Tp's observation that may be they simply walked across, I've just read in a paper by Ettore Randi - Phylogeography of South European Mammals that, due to sea levels in the Med. being 100 - 120m lower than today, as recently as 20,000 years ago (ie during the Last Glacial Maximum) Iberia was joined to Africa. Even I, with my number dyslexia (there's a term, can't remember it now) was surprised at that. Still reading.....
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Offline steveT

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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2008, 19:26 PM »
Lisa,
 
I'll have a look article, as the general concensus that you have to go back a few million years to get a time when Africa and Europe were joined. The Gibraltar straits are much deeper than 120m.

steveT


Offline lisa

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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2008, 22:02 PM »
Mmm, I know. He has Sicily joined to the toe and the Italian and Balkan peninsulas joined. There's a map. I'll look at posting a quote from the text tomorrow.
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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2008, 10:07 AM »
Hi all
Interesting stuff and taking a very broad geographical route so I shall throw in a couple more ideas (helped by discussion with my daughter who has archeological and  anthropological background. Pygmy elephants...and this little gem


Abstract
Archaeological excavations at Southfleet Road, Ebbsfleet, Kent, have revealed a complex sequence of fossiliferous Middle Pleistocene sediments containing lithic artefacts. An incomplete skeleton of straight-tusked elephant Palaeoloxodon antiquus was found in lacustrine sediments in close association with a cluster of mint condition cores, flakes and notched flake-tools, some with evidence of use-damage. These finds appear to reflect in situ tool production and butchery of the elephant carcass. A far larger concentration of similar artefacts, again in mint condition, occurred nearby in the same horizon. These finds were overlain by a fluvial gravel containing abundant handaxes, some also in mint condition. A range of fossils, including pollen, molluscs and small vertebrates, indicates temperate conditions with local woodland coeval with the elephant butchery. The sediments appear to have formed during the early part of an interglacial, almost certainly MIS 11. As well as providing rare undisturbed evidence of human behaviour, the site supports the existence of a distinctive non-handaxe Clactonian core/flake-tool industry in southeast England at this period. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

http://www.cq.rm.cnr.it/elephants2001/pdf/402_406.pdf
SUMMARY: The wall paintings of the 18th Dynasty tomb of Rekh-mi-Re¯, vizier of Thutmosis III, at Thebes
(Egypt) show, among other figures, that of a small-sized elephant borne by the Syrian tributaries as a gift to
the Egyptian pharaoh. It has been observed that this proboscidean cannot be an immature specimen in view
of its large tusks, and that it could be referred to the Asiatic elephant, which seems to have lived in historical
times in the western Near East. But, in the light of archaeological and paleontological evidence, it cannot
be excluded that the elephant depicted in the Rekh-mi-R tomb could also represent a dwarf proboscidean,
possibly imported to Egypt from somewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean islands where endemic dwarf
elephants might still have survived up to protohistorical times.

This is a very interesting paper and there is another paper knocking around from my alma mater Soton uni on same stuff.
SueMac
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2008, 10:49 AM »
From Phylogeography of South European Mammals on Springerlink;

"The Pleistocene climatic changes had manifold consequences on landscape
structure in southern Europe. At LGM the distributions of plant and animal
species were strongly conditioned by the huge Scandinavian and Alpine ice
caps, the extension of continental permafrost and tundra, the lowering of the
sea level (the Mediterranean was 120 m lower than present) and the presence
of land bridges in the Mediterranean (Figure 2).
"

And below the map;

"Figure 2. The main landscape changes in southern Europe at LGM. Glaciers covered most of
northern Europe, the Pyrenees and the Alps. Permafrost existed over most of the European
continent. The Mediterranean was 100-120 m lower than present resulting in land bridges,
such as those connecting the Iberian Peninsula and Africa, Corsica and Sardinia, Sicily and
the Italian Peninsula, and the Italian and Balkan peninsulas
."
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Offline steveT

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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2008, 23:05 PM »
Lisa,

I could only get the abstract. As far as I understand the scientific community are really convinced there was no land bridge between iberia and africa after approx 5 million years ago ..... all  articles that are related to this area, refer to this.

The last glacial maxima LGM was aprrox 30 000 years ago.........I have seen no article refering to a land bridge to Europe at this time ........ in fact all related articles refer to the presence of sea.

steveT

Offline steveT

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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2008, 23:16 PM »
Lisa ..... just discovered your message ...... thanks......yes I agree with your concerns.

steveT

Offline steveT

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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2008, 23:49 PM »
Lisa,

LGM was 18,000 years ago ......sorry my mistake .....

steveT