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Driving over golf courses

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Offline Clive

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« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2007, 11:52 AM »
Hola shroomy squad

Once the petition site is back up and you are happy with the text you need to write the introduction post in a new topic in this board and name it "sign the the petition" or something like that.

there should be a link from there to the petition site and a link from the petition site to the introduction topic.

In the introduction topic you can link to this topic so people can read about how it came about...

Have any of you tested your new shroomy powers yet? I figure you will have an option to sticky the introduction post to the top...(If not I will do it)

Clive
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2007, 15:09 PM »
Doh!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 15:19 PM by lisa »
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2007, 17:58 PM »
TP, are we to expect forthcoming Spanish translations for the topic posts?
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2007, 20:17 PM »
Greetings Lisa and All,
Can 'ave a bash at it with me niblick, but I'm not a translator - I'm just good at spotting other people's mistakes >:D
Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

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« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2007, 22:28 PM »
Hi,
Spotting mistakes is the easy bit, of course, especially for grizzly guirris like me.

Lisa, I never knew you were a Nelson Gabrial fan!

Si  :clapping:

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2007, 22:36 PM »
OK Lisa (this was your idea, right?), Simon (here's your opp. to challenge my current leadership of the 'Shroomey Squad (a proposito de lo cúal: have any of you guys (and gals) out there read a brilliant book - called, in Spanish, ¡Eres una Bestia, Viskovitz! by Alessandro Boffa) - I think I saw a recent translation in English) and All, :dancing:
Before posting this on the corresponding thread on this board, I'd be grateful if you could just have a bash at it - be cruel - and give me your feedback. My idea is just to set the ball rolling for Spaniards to participate - on this thread, at least, given the exceptional circumstances - in Spanish. Am posting it now here before I lose it all - but still have to fill in a statistic which is lurking elsewhere on this board ...

En nombre de los moderadores de iberianature forum, quiero darle la bienvenida a nuestro foro. Como habrás notado, el idioma por defecto es el inglés, dado que el foro surge como iniciativa para intercambiar las opiniones de las personas de habla inglesa que viven aquí o que están pensando en visitar esta maravillosa Península Ibérica para conocer más a fondo su riqueza en costumbres, gastronomía y, como no, su naturaleza singular. Sin embargo, no queremos dejar sin voz a los españoles en su propio país, y por tanto hemos preparado este pequeño (aunque largo) resumen de los antecedentes de la petición.

Desde hace tiempo ya, venimos observando con preocupación, y comentándolo aquí en el foro, como en algunos lugares de la Península se están creciendo los campos de golf “como hongos”. No sería tan preocupante si esto estuviera teniendo lugar en el norte de la Península, muy parecido al clima que más se asocia con el golf en concreto. Sin embargo, en muchos casos está sucediendo precisamente en aquellas zonas en donde el agua es un recurso muy escaso.

Ya ha habido numerosas manifestaciones, a nivel local, en aquellos pueblos y localidades que se verán afectados más directamente por la construcción de un campo de golf y aquí en el foro hemos pensado que se podría echarles una mano dándole al tema un enfoque más internacional. Precisamente por ser los usuarios potenciales de esos campos las personas de habla inglesa, hemos querido lanzar esta petición a nuestros compatriotas y demás personas que utilizan el inglés.

Bien es sabido que España necesita un cambio de dirección en cuanto al tipo de turista que viene a visitar. Sin embargo, la construcción de complejos de golf, que ofrecen paquetes en donde todo está incluido y los usuarios no van a salir del complejo para contribuir a la economía local, no es la solución ni para la economía local ni, y aquí es donde obviamente un foro dedicado principalmente a la naturaleza debe estar más pendiente, para el equilibrio tan delicado de la naturaleza.

Los expertos están avisando, a diario ya, del calentamiento de la Tierra y sus efectos sobre la vida misma. Discrepan de sí es a corto o a largo plazo. Da igual – todos están de acuerdo en que está sucediendo. Y es precisamente en esta coyuntura en la que se está construyendo aún más campos de golf - en precisamente aquellas zonas más vulnerables.

El tema da para mucho, así que hemos intentado resumir – evitando en la medida de lo posible, los datos estadísticos - el contenido de muchos meses de debate aquí en iberianature forum, en los doce siguientes puntos:

1. España es uno de los países de Europa más afectados por la desertificación. Según datos del Ministerio del Medioambiente , el 31,49% del país se enfrenta a un riesgo muy alto y más datos.

2. España ya ocupa – sin incluir los nuevos campos - el tercer puesto del mundo en nivel de consumo de agua por persona, según el  - Instituto de Innovación Empresarial, perteneciendo al Gobierno de Las Islas Baleares.

3. España entra ahora en su tercer año consecutivo de sequía – y otro año más de restricciones de abastecimiento de agua potable en muchos pueblos de Andalucía.

4. Según la Real Federación Española de Golf , España ya dispone de 341 campos de golf y lo que resulta más preocupante, según Greenpeace, existen licencias para la construcción de unos 320 más.

5. Andalucía, es la región con mayor número de campos de golf (96 en la actualidad, con 316 previstas) y con algunas zonas, como Málaga con 46 campos en la actualidad. (Fuente: Real Federación Española de Golf).

6. El negocio (no entraremos en el tema de la especulación) está dirigido en gran medida a jugadores de golf británicos, que vendrán a un complejo golfístico, para unas jornadas intensivas de juego, con todos los gastos y servicios incluidos, pagados ya de antemano en el Reino Unido, lo cual reduce su necesidad o interés en salir a conocer los alrededores, es decir, habrá muy poco beneficio a nivel local (algo parecido a lo que sucede al pequeño comercio en las proximidades de un centro comercial.)

7. Muchos pueblos están ya manifestándose en contra de la construcción - actual o prevista – de campos de golf en sus localidades al verse directamente afectados por cortes de agua mientras que los campos de golf están obligados a tener sus propios pozos, los cuales, ni falta decirlo, están contribuyendo a vaciar los acuíferos locales.

8. Como ya es notorio, muchas licencias están siendo concedidas por los ayuntamientos desesperados por conseguir ingresos. El consiguiente “trapicheo” ha resultado en – a fecha de agosto de 2007 - en 18 alcaldes imputados directamente por licencias ilegales para la construcción de viviendas – y en todos los casos - ¡qué casualidad! - su correspondiente campo de golf. 

9. Los campos de golf necesitan cantidades enormes de agua – de ahí la lógica de su construcción en zonas con abundante lluvia. Un green (la zona de césped más cuidada del campo y con una extensión mínima, según el campo, de XX m2) necesita regarse dos veces al día. Y un campo de golf tiene 18 greens.

10. Como saben muy bien los españoles, resultará imposible jugar a golf a pleno sol durante muchas horas del día, y en cuanto los "pardillos" que vendrán una vez se lo cuentan a sus amigos en sus países de origen, muchos campos de golf  quedarán literalmente desiertas.

11. En iberianature forum no tenemos nada en contra de la práctica del juego de golf - de hecho, el que escribe estas lineas es un gran aficionado. Lo que nos preocupa - y mucho - son las consecuencias desastrosas de un aumento descontrolado en la construcción de los campos y de su ubicación.

12. España es un país maravilloso en donde se puede disfrutar de una amplia oferta turística. Brinda a los visitantes una variedad paisajística, gastronómica y de ocio sin parangón. Nosotros, los miembros de iberianature forum y amantes de España, quisiéramos contribuir a que esta situación dure mucho tiempo. Por eso pedimos que se adhiere a nuestra iniciativa y animarle a firmar la petición que se enviará a las instancias correspondientes en la UE, el Gobierno de la Nación, las CC.AA., y a la prensa británica.

Si tienes alguna pregunta, comentario o sugerencia, por favor, no dude en contactar con nosotros aquí en iberianature forum e intentaremos contestarle en cuanto antes.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 22:50 PM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2007, 23:21 PM »
Greetings All,
Re. Simon's cryptic (at least to me) question to Lisa:
Quote
Nelson Gabriel (Jack May), Walter's son, was for many years the most disreputable character in the village. He had a shady history. He was charged with the Borchester mail-van robbery in 1967, but was eventually acquitted. After spells in London and Spain, he ran a wine bar and later an antque shop (with Kenton Archer). Finally he suddenly disappeared to South America, where he died in strange circumstances.

More at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Archers

Long life to Google, Wikipedia and Technopat  :dancing:

Ps. The actual ref. remains a mystery, but ... (Simon, have you ever, perchance, run a wine bar ...?)
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2007, 23:36 PM »
Yeah, I had to google that too, with the odd spelling change of course, sorry Simon! Can never follow a serial myself as I forget to listen in at the correct times. Catch the Simpsons every now and again though.

Anyway, love "este pequeño (aunque largo)" but don't love "No sería tan preocupante si esto estuviera teniendo lugar en el norte de la Península," We don't want bull-dozers coming up here to flatten our hills for golf courses thankyou very much.
Apart from that, it's great. How about starting a new topic on this board with a Spanish title just for Spanish. Oh, and the bit at the end I think you could drop - we will answer on the topic in Spanish. What do you think?
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
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And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2007, 11:57 AM »
Greetings Lisa,
Have taken your comments on board, but will wait before posting it under a new thread till I get feedback from Simon, so that the three iberianatureforumpetiton moderators are seen to be undivided on the issue.
I think the bit 'bout answering in SP. might just create that - what did Simon once call it, "feely-touchy"? - atmosphere which will help non-English speakers decide to attach their moniker. I have no contingency plan for that one as I don't seriously expect anyone to take us up on it.
Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
How are the computer-aided projections on the number of signers-per-day going? Anyone know 'bout how to do such mindless stats.?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 12:02 PM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2007, 22:34 PM »
If everyone sends the petition link to their contacts and asks them to spread it around, adds it to their email signature, posts on like-minded forums, etc. etc. we may see some progress. I've submitted it to the google search bots.
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Simon

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« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2007, 07:24 AM »
Hi Techno, Lisa et al,

Brilliant work on the Spanish intro TP! I’ve got a big issue to raise on this one and this is a good opportunity to build a new topic out of it – when I find the time and when I can get the use of my left index finger (WSDFC & G – come back Pitman, all is forgiven!) – I had a bad day yesterday, finding the two red hot pimientos del padron  :o and a tussle with a chopping block, a bloody great knife and the end of the fuet . . . :'(

TP: I asked for some data re. water consumption and you posted something from the International Golf Federation, which I guess specifies the size of the greens – I suppose they have to be standard like most other sports pitches, tennis bats, cricket rackets . . . :speechless:

Here’s your reply; “The European Golf Association http://www.ega-golf.ch/070000/070500.asp also has an interesting links page

OK – the cup must be placed at least 10 feet from the edge of the green, so simplifying the maths and calculating the area of the circumference gives us (not too sure of my basics here, but something along the lines of Area = pork pie times 10 feet squared = an area of 314 ft2 times 18 greens = an absolute minimum, carefully, nurtured area of grass per gold course consisting of 5,652ft2 (approx. 1,884 sqaure metres? - how does measure in terms of soccer pitches, which I imagine would be an easier comparison for many people? ) - which of course doesn’t include the other areas that need watering!). My maths are wonky – soy de letras – En. Anyone?"


I think the issue of us not being so worried about developments northern Spain should stay: as the mainspring of our argument is to do with water resources, we can’t apply that to a region that has ample water supply but, as in Galicia for example, a genuine need for income generation and jobs. I think it should be a bit more specific, though, otherwise folk may infer that it’s OK in places like Catalonia or even Leon, I know there is a specific phrase in reference to the zone affected by the Atlantic weather system, something like Littoral Atlantico but it escapes me just now – I’ll start to watch the weather on La 1 or 2 to get it, it’ll make a change from TV3!

Developing this further: I think we should be very careful about being NIMBY-ish as it’s a weak argument in this horrible, overcrowded world. Likewise I’d avoid putting any further emphasis on the ‘cash stays abroad’ issue as I’ve been criticised for using it by an academic moderator, claiming that this point is a bit of an old chestnut. In fact the issue does stand up in Spain when one takes into account the infrastructure costs of tourism in terms of the 12 month year and 2 month peak season, i.e. ajuntamientos have to provide infrastructure and services for peak populations up to ten times the base level, plus the negative impact of short term, low-pay seasonal employment and its associated off-season unemployment. Whereas one of the advantages of golf course developments is their year-round use, so that what jobs they do create are genuinely full-time.

As for my obscure ref. I’m afraid I’ve led you both up the garden path. I actually meant to refer to Walter Gabriel, whose bye-line was “Doh”. It must have been a Freudian slip of me to write Nelson G. No, TP, I’ve never run a dodgy wine bar, although I’ve propped up a few in my time, but I did live in Brighton and had certain ‘associates’ in the antique business!

As for an on-line progress graphic, I’m surprised that the petition site doesn’t do this. The statistics and formula would be quite straightforward, but it should be integral with the petition database and would have to update automatically from the data tables at regular intervals, daily I suppose. :booklook:

Bye bye for now

Simon

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2007, 09:58 AM »
Hola el trio  de moderatores famosos!

Did nt think any of you were old enough to know about Walter Gabriel and thought one or two of you were snotty about my mentioning Radio Four............ :o
Back to this thread which has been running now for sometime.  I have been able to keep up with most of it during the last few weeks but being rather tired and a tad busy now I havent been able to give it my full attention. I was aware however that I was feeling a little bit uncomfortable  without having the energy to put in the mental spade work.

Just an aside here :if it made me feel a little at sea and slightly uncomfortable you need to think about all those people you are trying to appeal to and make it as easy as possible for them

I kind of got hold of some of my anxieties reading Simon's last post which I think ties down some of the points.  For what its worth here are some of my thoughts.

1.  I think tackling this issue is incredibly important and well done the way you have set about it.
2.  Can someone summarise succinctly for me exactly who the petition is aimed at?
The Spanish government, expats, awareness raising of the English, Spanish the golf industry, the tourist industry
3. The importance of the game of golf to this country's  (my chosen place to live) world status (honour, pride  economy etc) must be highlighted and treated with extreme care. However any encouraging of a change of direction must bring the indigenous people along as well. So I think TPs spanish emphasis at least goes part way to addressing this.
4. Be careful of the number of petitions going around - I sense it could get to be be counterproductive.
5. Other routes that could also be considered with help from TP - hitting some of the big newspapers of Spain by letters to the ed. Golf magazines, Tourist magazines.
6. Dont use any statistic which could make this forum look stupid by its inaccuracy and consequently its integrity.
7. DONT stop! There is so much at stake and stuff to be conveyed to a very large catchment group.
Best
SueMac
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2007, 11:08 AM »
Greetings SueMac,
Nice points. Thanks for your feedback and input.
The reason (in part) it all seems so confusing and long-winded is
a) I'm involved,
b) we suddenly went from bandying mere words about to setting up a fully-fledged petition, with very little in between. We had sort of hoped others would join in a sort of taskforce and rationalise things a bit before going anywhere, but time is ... >:D , and
c) the only co-ordination we've done is what you've already seen on these (virtual) pages.

In answer to one of your points ('cos this is already longer than intended), speaking personally, my idea is the following re. your 2) target groups - on the one hand, I want to appeal to as wide an audience as possible rather than restricting it to those who are already environmentally-aware. I know for a fact that many people, rightly or wrongly, don't get more directly involved in protests because they don't want to give more protagonism to certain NGOs which they don't identify with. This target can be reached by approaching all the national and local press (both in Sp. and the UK), but as far as I'm concerned, that's for the future when we've already accumulated a serious number of sigs. - not many people read the paper now in summer - but many will have driven past gold courses at full sprinkler - as indeed one signee (non-iberianatureforumer, as far as I know) has already mentioned!

Likewise, I personally don't want to antagonise golfers, some of whom are genuinely nice people and even environmentally-aware. I'd just like them to rationalise the situation as it stands here in Spain, at least, and do something about it or at least talk about it amongst themselves.

Must stop now - how do you guys (and gals) manage to keep your postings so brief and to-the-point?

Optimistic regs.,
Technopat
Ps.
Re. the initial target of 10,000 signatures, I can't remember who said it, and it's too good to be my own, but it's great:
Quote
I haven't let success go to my head.
Have you had much success then?
None whatsoever.
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2007, 11:23 AM »
Just following on to that  people who have had holidays and are beginning to get back to work will be available for someone to hit them hard with this stuff - that makes it mid September to mid October as a critical period. After that you have half term hols November and Xmas!!! Dont think people will engage so much.
SueMac
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2007, 11:36 AM »
Greetings Simon and All,
Just read yours, Simon - tough luck! Traumeel (lotion) is also great for regenerating damaged skin (once the wound is semi-closed).

So I post the Sp. version. (minus Lisa's concerns, toning it down re. SueMac's points and your latest). If it needs to be amended further, no prob. - what's been read by those who've read it is old hat and what will be read by newcomers will stand. It's early days yet.

I think that, as this is an ongoing project, any and all the bits people keep adding on are great - that's what forums are about - and we can slip in little details "drop by drop" as we go along (as you rightly point out, the fact that something - off-season unemployment in Spain - may be an old chesnut elsewhere and/or in academia, doesn't make it any less real), almost in passing.

As for the mindless stats., until one of our fellow (guys and gals) iberianatureforumers comes along with the technology/knowhow, I'll pop in every now and then to the petition site and see what the tally is. Crude but effective, and we can draw conclusions from there.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2007, 13:19 PM »
Greetings All
Simon, re. your
Quote
cricket rackets and tennis bats
are the latter related to these sweet-and-cuddly things from down-under - although this Wikipedia article suggests that they are not always so sweet-and-c.8)
Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
Update of sigs:
As of 1 p.m. on day 3, there are 10 sigs. Good start!
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2007, 10:00 AM »
Sorry if I jumped in a bit too quickly there with the getting-of-the-petition-online but we could discuss it forever and be too fussy. Anyway, it can be amended at any time.
My turn to be nitty-picky, TP, you've started off your excellent Spanish post with "darle" and then continued with "habrás".  :noidea: Sure your Spanish is better than mine though  :clapping: 

P.S. My brother's a golfer - will be interested to hear his views  :biggrin:
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2007, 11:25 AM »
Greetings Lisa and All,
Thanx for the nitty-pickiness - totally correct, of course - but taking advantage that we're foreign users of Spanish and can thus be forgiven certain liberties  8) , I had sort of played with the idea of a formal welcome and then chumminess, but reading it 'cold',  I see now that it doesn't work (especially as towards the end I reverted to asking for their sig. by using the formal form again). Fixed now. Does it really look as good as I reckon it does?  :technodevil:
Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2007, 15:01 PM »
Yes.  :technodevil:  :sign:  :dancing:
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2007, 16:17 PM »
Greetings All,
Does anyone out there have the necessary skills required for lobbying Our Great and Wise Etceteras into putting a reference in Sp. and En. (with a link either to the thread here or direct to the petition site) to the petition on the Iberianature web page AND moving the board up so that it's right up there at the top when people log in. If you think it's a good idea.

As usual my credit with the powers-that-b. is pretty low - in fact one might say it's hit an all-time low - and I'm not in a pos. to get 'em to do anything right now. I've tried sending out positive vibes, but to no avail - ADSL is too primitive, I suppose (or they are particularly hard-skinned), so I reckon some of that ol' feminine charm we hear so much about might do the trick ...  :technodevil:

Humble regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266