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Oldest humans in western Europe

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Offline Clive

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« on: June 30, 2007, 15:49 PM »
Hola,

I find it absolutely amazing that as an assorted race of bi-pedal opposed thumbed creatures we (in some form or another) have been around for such a long time. The latest find at Atapuerca ( a tooth) have been dated to over 1 million years...

Does this knowledge that we have been around for so long mean that the things that go on today should just be ignored...Global warming, wars and natural catastrophes have not made much of a difference...We are still here...Think about it. One Million years on the planet! The oldest "human" fossil  has been dated to 1.8 million years...

BBC news at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6256356.stm

The Atapuerca website at http://www.ucm.es/info/paleo/ata/english/

Clive

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Offline Dave

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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 16:10 PM »
Hi Clive and All
It is all very interesting, but does this mean that, no matter how long we have existed on this planet, we never learn.
Regards
Dave

Offline Clive

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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 20:16 PM »
Hola,

But.... We (in general) must have learned and adapted otherwise we (in general) would not have survived....The list is endless of species that have fallen by the wayside because they could not adapt to new "environments"

That said, many species have gone because they could not survive the human "environment"

That said as well...Heck, 1.8 million years?... I believe the earth has gone through quite a few global warmings and ice ages in that time....Yet life still persists...

Clive
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

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Offline lisa

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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 21:49 PM »
I think the climate changes the earth has seen up to now have been relatively slow processes giving humans time to adapt. What we're experiencing now could be quite a different thing but don't suppose the species will be wiped out completely, just pared down a bit numbers-wise.
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 17:57 PM »
You're right Lisa, the key concept in the current phase of climate change is the pace or rate of the change, the extent really isn't so unusual. However I don't think the pace has ever reaqly been an issue in terms of adaptation, rather that we (that is the human race) are now so critically dependant on fragile environments for our food and living space that there really isn't any room to 'adapt'!

I have a pet theory (oh no, not another I hear you cry!) that nature can pretty well get on without us lot, given a few zillion years to recuperate, so what the heck; it's our fault and it's our problem and we're the ones who are going to do the suffering. If I get on to the issue of sentient beings being aware of thier own doom I'll probably end up taking myself to the Balcò del Mediterraneo and hurl my stupid self off of it, so perhaps I should leave it there!

I'd better get sensible, take the doggies for thier you-know-whats, have a tapas and contemplate the moonrise instead!

Bow wow owwwwww!

Simon


Offline Technopat

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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 22:09 PM »
Greetings All,
Where the h*** was I when this great thread got started? Some great points - too many to address at one sitting (for a change 8) ) -
But for starters:
Simon's
Quote
we (that is the human race) are now so critically dependant on fragile environments for our food and living space that there really isn't any room to 'adapt'!
Humans have always migrated - be it 'cos of war, work, over-population or hunger. Cross-breeding strengthens the species.
and again
Quote
nature can pretty well get on without us lot, given a few zillion years to recuperate, so what the heck; it's our fault and it's our problem
Agreed, but we've done more than our fair share to destroy the delicate b. of n. - some of which will never recover, even when we're long gone and not messing about with it.

And Lisa's
Quote
relatively slow processes giving humans time to adapt.
and/or migrate (see above).

And Clive's
Quote
many species have gone because they could not survive the human "environment"
Here today, gone tomorrow.

and Dave's
Quote
we never learn
just 'bout sums it up.

To which I would like to add: it's simply a matter of a race against time - can enough human beings with a raised level of awareness convince a vast majority of others - a) those who have more than enough troubles on their hands to care 'bout being ecological, ie just surviving; b) those who are just interested in making a quick buck at others' expenses; c) those who trust to whatever god they believe in that whatever happens is just that deity's will; and the list goes on ad nauseam ad infinitum.

Got carried away and nearly forgot: the cover photo and pp 5 & 11 are particularly interesting

Not especially pessimistic regs.
Technopat
Ps.
Simon - I have a cool pet cat  ;D - do you take your pet theory out for walkies wiv the doggies?  :biggrin:
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 22:39 PM »
Hi Techno,

Sadly, I never seem to be able to shake off the old pet theories! My late cats: Kato, Abdab and Riff-raff follow me still in my dreams - yes, my local tapas bar was infiltrated by José-the postman with hs earlky Pink Floyd CD's, so off now to more nihilism!!!

Si X

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 22:41 PM »
Also meant to add this but got c. away:
Quote
No trace of warfare has been found at Caral; no battlements, no weapons, no mutilated bodies. ... findings suggest it was a gentle society, built on commerce and pleasure. In one of the pyramids they uncovered 32 flutes made of condor and pelican bones and 37 cornets of deer and llama bones.
For those of you who don't know of it, it's the oldest city-state on the American continent and it throws interesting light on society as opposed to just simple arqueological remains.
Read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral

According to the folks who know 'bout such things, this site totally knocks on the head established theories as to why humans first gathered to build cities - i.e. to protect themselves from invasion. What the site seems to prove is that humans, at least those living 4,000 years ago (1,500 yrs before Mesopotamia), were pacific, sociable and came together for the common good. So it would seem that it's only in the interest of a few - is this starting to ring a bell? - to stir up hatred and mistrust and ad infinitum, no, this time it's ad nauseam >:D

Hope for the future?
Regs.
Technopat
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 20:05 PM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 22:57 PM »
Greetings All and Simon,
For those of you who have no idea what archeological remains Simon is referring to above/below, here's a Rosetta stone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Klose

Regs.
Technopat
Ps. And I'll see yours on Dr Hook, Simon, at http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,464.msg3479.html#msg3479  :dancing:
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 17:09 PM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Jill

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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2007, 18:28 PM »
One million years is not very long. Not correct, either. I guess it depends what you label as human, but a couple of upright-walking "people" with feet said to be identical to our own once walked across a muddy plateau near a volcano in East Africa and left a trail which is still there now, almost four million years later.

But that's not very long either, Clive. The dinosaurs were around for 160 million years - and look what happened to them.

We're just a blip on the timeline. An evolutionary dead end. The world will go on, in some form or other - although if we carry on messing things up at the present rate, it may have to start again from the very beginning.

Jill (No smiley, thank-you)

Offline Jill

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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2007, 18:29 PM »
Sorry, Clive; I've just re-read your opening post and now see that it specifically says Western Europe. But it doesn't alter the facts / dismal scenario

Jill

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2007, 20:04 PM »
Greetings All,
Can't believe that there's still folks out there bandying figures about. It was clearly established some time ago - remember reading about it at my local library as a kid (instead of studying, of course) - and anything else is just a Darwinian-Commie plot to undermine the free-thinking, God-fearing world as we know it.

As all you regular Wikipedia users know, it's great for expounding on encyclopaedic articles with snippets such as this one, going on from where other established sources leave off.

As Jill says re. dinosaurs and blips, they were around a lot longer than we've been or will be (see my iberianatureforum posting elsewhere, from a few days back).

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline steveT

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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2007, 22:14 PM »
Dear Lisa,

It is correct that the rate at which we are adding co2 to the atmosphere is is very fast and that the global temperatures are rising fast

 ........but also often natural  climate change is very fast too. Over the last 2 decades one of the biggest revelations in the field of climatology as been the speed of climate change.ie in the decade time scale.  Examples of these are the desertification of the Sahara ( After its short wet phase after the last Ice Age) this happened 5500 BC and took place in a few decades. During the warming after the last Ice Age there was a 1000yr flip to ice age cold again 11500-10500bc called the Youger Dryas .....this again took place in the decades time scale. Both are are thought to be associated with the shutting off of the Gulf stream that western Europe ' artificially warm'.

This is what is so scary ..... if the gulf stream was switched off again............the UK would be a ski detination and Iberia a grey drizzly place ............. joke !!! Seriosly Uk would be dryer and colder though and Iberia cooler but I'm not sure about precipitation. Humans have been able to adapt to these sudden changes....probably with difficulty - but they did ......lets hope we can too.

steveT
 

Offline Clive

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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 22:41 PM »
Hola,

Jill, I think you have missed the point of my post. It is irrelevant that the dinosaurs lived for 160 million years and not the subject at all. or is it? Now you make me think.......

The dinosaurs lived through many global warmings and coolings.... What difference did it make to their survival or extinction... Not a lot me thinks. living fossils exists today therefore not all were destroyed over the millennia...Not by ice age nor cataclysmic comet impacts....

"Human beings" that populate the earth today are the descendants of those who existed 1 million years ago. Neither plague nor fire nor pole shifts has stopped the expansion....

My main point was that just because it is going to get hotter or colder or that the seas will rise that this will mean the end of the "human race". It will continue and seems to be unstoppable. I don't believe it to be an "evolutionary dead end" (think about space travel there)

So why is a "minority" (me /us) of the human population of the world bothered about it when the "majority" (them) is not?

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe "they" are right and that "we" should just live for today... After all the Earth and the big picture does not really include us as an individual species... Does it?

Clive



« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 22:49 PM by Wildside »
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Offline Jill

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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2007, 00:33 AM »
Answers on a postcard:

1.) I don't think that the dinosaurs did live through global warmings and coolings. The world has spent most of it's life as a hottish place with no ice at the poles. It's only relatively recently that the climate has started to bounce to and fro, with ice ages every few millenia. Man has survived these - not in the UK but elsewhere, including Iberia, I suppose - so maybe you're right: maybe we're more adaptable and resilient than T.rex and the iguanadons.

2.)Steve, I think you were right first time, with your joke. If the gulf stream stops then Britain will be as cold as the places which are at the same latitude on the other side of the pond. Have you ever flown over Newfoundland? It's still locked up behind the ice in June. I don't think there'll be a lot of skiing in Britain. If the Gulf stream current stops bringing us the warm water from the Caribbean it will be too cold for anybody but the Inuit to live in Britain.

3.) If I were a bookie then I think that I would probably reckon on a 10 percent chance of man managing to survive the next climatic "disaster". A ten percent chance that some of us will survive and continue the species, probably having to revert to pseudo iron age technology. But even if none of us survive - if we kill each other off in the war for food, or the war for water, or if we just starve or die of heat exhaustion on a baking hot barren-seeming planet -  I believe that life will go on, without us. Perhaps it's happened in the past. I wonder.... what are the odds of man, or something like us, evolving twice over on the same lump of space-dust during the lifetime of the universe? Evolving and then being wiped out without trace...?

How on earth did we get started on this subject?

Jill

Offline Clive

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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2007, 08:47 AM »
Hola,

Dunno Jill but it's an interesting subject all the same...

Clive
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline spanishfreelander

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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2007, 23:22 PM »
Hi all,
Very interesting thread.
My money is on the Coackroaches taking over from us.
We seem to be messing everything up so quickly,i really cant see us being here for very much longer...
How much longer?Its anybodys guess...but if we do finally "extinct" ourselves..those lovely Cockroaches will still be here..and who knows..
After a few thousand years..they will be building golf courses on the costa del sol...
Mind you,the fairways will have to be a lot shorter... Two years for a round of Golf..is a bit too much,even for a Cockroach   :biggrin:
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 23:24 PM by spanishfreelander »