Author Topic: Iberian Lynx  (Read 71384 times)

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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2007, 13:32 PM »
A front page article in El Pais is claiming that a “population” of lynxes has been found somewhere undisclosed in Castilla La-Mancha (Montes de Toledo? Sierra de Alcarza?), the first to be detected in 10 years. There’s a video so I suppose it must be true. What I am very, very cynical about is that the article claims there are “dozens” of adults. How is it possible that so many animals could go undetected for so long? I suspect it should read “some”.  And the journalist who wrote the thing clearly doesn’t have a clue or was asleep when he wrote it, starting that the “El lince vuelve en manada a Castilla-La Mancha” – Packs of lynx return to Castilla-La Mancha, something unthinkable for a territorial lynx. What does he think they are, lions? Great news that even a few have been discovered, though.

http://www.iberianature.com/spainblog/2007/10/21/iberian-lynx-in-castilla-la-mancha/
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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2007, 13:32 PM »

Offline Technopat

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Re: Has anyone seen an Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2007, 16:00 PM »
Greetings All,
I can now reveal that I too, in an undisclosed place in Castilla-La Mancha last winter, saw the pawprint - no camera - (only one in an isolated patch of remaining snow) of what I was convinced was a lynx - as opposed to mountain tabby cat - but the odds against it were overwhelming, and given the predominant city-dweller aspect of my contributions to this 'ere great  :sign: forum and not wishing to be laughed at by every-ready iberianatureforumers, yours truly kept schtum :-X.

Any tips for trying to see lynx i.e. early morning, late evening? Tho' my instinct tells me to avoid the place so as not to interrupt its stroll.

Regs.
Technopat

PS.
Just remembered that I still haven't developed the photos of my central London (precise location to remain a secret) fox.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 00:50 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2007, 23:22 PM »
How exciting! Actually it was even more so when I read it as being in Castilla y León  ::) but still great news. That should put the kybosh on any gold courses etc. planned for that area  :clapping:
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 18:19 PM »
The whole thing is weird...and has not (yet) been picked up by others like El Mundo (is this becuase of its traditional bias againast PSOE controlled regions or because they smell a rat?) ... let's see what comes up in the next few days...though I think we must be talking about a very small population
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 18:23 PM »
Just come acroos this much clearer piece. Perhaps we are indeed looking at a bigger population

http://actualidad.terra.es/ciencia/articulo/junta_castilla-la_mancha_1948474.htm

No time for summary, sorry

Junta corrobora la presencia estable del lince ibérico en Castilla-La Mancha


La Junta de Comunidades de Castilla-La Mancha ha corroborado la presencia de lince ibérico (linx pardina) en esta comunidad autónoma, tras obtener grabaciones de vídeo en las que se ven algunos ejemplares adultos de esta especie catalogada en peligro de extinción.

El director general de Política Forestal de la Consejería de Medio Ambiente y Desarrollo Rural, José Ignacio Nicolás Dueñas, dijo hoy a Efe que estas grabaciones vienen a corroborar los análisis de ADN de excremento de lince que en los últimos años ha hallado el personal de la Consejería en varias provincias de Castilla-La Mancha.

Los análisis genéticos que el museo de Ciencias Naturales ha hecho de estos excrementos han revelado 'periódicamente', según Nicolás, la presencia del lince ibérico en Castilla-La Mancha, donde ya en 2005 se constató la presencia de un significativo número de individuos distintos de esta especie en los Montes de Toledo y en Sierra Morena, en las provincias de Ciudad Real y Albacete.

Las grabaciones de los linces avistados ahora se han hecho en fincas particulares dedicadas a la actividad cinegética, comentó el responsable de la Junta, quien no quiso precisar en ningún momento la localización exacta de los ejemplares, 'porque creemos que es una manera de ganarnos la confianza de los propietarios privados y la estrategia más acertada para la conservación de la especie en estos momentos'.

De esta forma, aseguró Nicolás, se ha podido demostrar a los más incrédulos que 'los linces están en Castilla-La Mancha' y que el compromiso del gobierno regional, a través del Plan de Recuperación del Lince, el primero en España, 'está dando el resultado que todos hemos deseado'.

En su opinión, los nuevos datos obtenidos sobre el lince sirven para avalar las decisiones restrictivas que en muchas ocasiones ha adoptado esta Administración, y que no han sido bien entendidas por determinados sectores cinegéticos o propietarios, en aquellas áreas críticas para la supervivencia del lince ibérico.

La Consejería de Medio Ambiente y Desarrollo Rural va a intensificar en los próximos meses las labores de fototrampeo en los lugares donde se han detectado los linces con el objetivo de hacer un seguimiento de las poblaciones para saber su número y cómo evolucionan, así como poder conocer las crías del año y las parejas reproductoras que existen.

Igualmente ha fijado un plan de trabajo para establecer convenios con los propietarios de las fincas cinegéticas para que se realicen los controles de depredadores con métodos compatibles con la conservación de la especie y se puedan implantar programas de recuperación del conejo en las zonas donde sus poblaciones estén más debilitadas.

Para José Ignacio Nicolás, la importancia de esta constatación de presencia de lince ibérico en Castilla-La Mancha es que se abren nuevas expectativas para el trabajo que viene desarrollando el Ministerio de Medio Ambiente con el programa de cría en cautividad en el que, dentro de poco, colaborará Castilla-La Mancha.

La escasa diversidad genética que existe al contar sólo con ejemplares de lince ibérico procedentes de las poblaciones de Doñana y Sierra Morena puede aumentar con los ejemplares procedentes de Castilla-La Mancha, un hecho que podría ayudar a completar en una mayor medida el mapa genético de esta especie.
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Offline Technopat

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Re: Has anyone seen an Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2007, 19:59 PM »
Greetings Nick and All,
I'm afraid the fact that others - and we all know who they are - are not picking up on the news is because of the implications involved. As in protecting land, stopping further development on land already protected, and a long etc. of consequences for neighbouring autonomous communities which oppose the setting up of nature reserves and so on... *

Remember how Madrid recently passing an emergency law (one of their specialities in many areas of political life here) to prevent civil servant forest rangers entering private estates?

And in the case in point
Quote
...se han hecho en fincas particulares dedicadas a *la actividad cinegética...
([filming] has been done on private estates devoted to hunting).

Likewise
Quote
...que no han sido bien entendidas por determinados sectores cinegéticos o propietarios, en aquellas áreas críticas para la supervivencia del lince ibérico.
([certain drastic measures taken to ensure survival of lynx] have not been well-accepted by certain sectors, such as that of hunting or the landowners)

Regs.
Technopat

*And I'm not joking.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 00:50 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2007, 21:59 PM »
Very true Technopat, though I'm not CLM is blameless either!
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2007, 23:41 PM »
More on the same story:

WWF/Adena celebra el descubrimiento de una nueva población de lince en Castilla-La Mancha

http://www.wwf.es/noticia.php?codigo=1201

Graban un grupo de linces en una zona manchega donde se creía desaparecido

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2007/10/22/ciencia/1193070086.html
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Offline lisa

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2007, 23:45 PM »
I just had a look at el lince iberico forum where someone points out that it's practically impossible to surprise a lynx like that - and if one did manage to get so close to one without it noticing, it would walk away (nonchanantly as cats do) before breaking into a trot. They surmise that the two (?) animals have just been released, in which case they would run. Hope to have more time tomorrow to ponder on the politics of this news  :booklook:
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2007, 23:56 PM »
I read that too.

 http://www.ellinceiberico.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=459

Anyway from that same forum which I have of course been reading since yesterday I've come across this from the CLM's own web. I saw this last year and took as wishful thinking/propaganda. It seems I was wrong. I bet this is the area we're talking about.

El caso del lince ibérico es el más dramático, pues se trata del felino más amenazado del planeta con una población que apenas supera los 200 ejemplares distribuidos por los montes del cuadrante suroccidental de la Península. En Castilla-La Mancha pueden ocultarse en el sector oriental de los Montes de Toledo, río Bullaque, arroyo Bullaquejo, Sierra de Picón, río Guadiana, Sierra Morena, Sierra del Relumbrar y río Guadalmena-Cerro Vico. El Gobierno regional ha declarado estas áreas como zonas sensibles para la conservación del lince y por este motivo han sido propuestas en la comisión Europea como Lugares de Importancia Comunitaria (LIC).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 00:05 AM by nick »
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2007, 00:03 AM »
I wrote this on the possible Toledo lynxes two years ago. And then Delibes came out and said he was highly skeptical...it makes you wonder about all the other stories you hear about (often on lince foro) about lynx's in one area or another. I assumed it out of frustration/desperation.

http://www.iberianature.com/material/iberianlynxnews.htm#lynxtoledo

11 March 2005 - Lost lynx population discovered in the Montes de Toledo thought to be extinct 15 years ago
A lynx hasn't been spotted in Montes de Toledo for 20 years and was declared extinct here 15 years ago. However, last week a glimmer of hope for the Iberian lynx came in the form of news of the discovery of lynxes here. DNA tests carried out on stools has confirmed the existence of three distinct lynx individuals. Other researchers have reported the presence of a fourth lynx nearby. It seems certain that these lynxes have bred and survived here all this time as the population of the Sierra Morena is too far and the distance too full of obstacles (motorways, dams, etc). The population is almost certainly small.

The presence of a third, albeit tiny lynx population, represents the first good news about the animal in many years.

There are believed to be 100-120 adult lynxes left in the wild in two (and now three?) unconnected populations (see below). Last year the 21-26 breeding females gave birth to between 37 and 47 cubs. Although already in decline, at the start of the 20th century there were thought to be some 100,000 Iberian lynxes.. If one discounts sub-species of tigers and lions, the extinction of the Iberian lynx would be the first among felines since the saber-toothed tiger some 10,000 years ago.
 
Miguel Delibes skeptical about Toledo lynxes (solociencia).
http://www.solociencia.com/noticias/0503/19111420.htm (again 2005)
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Offline Technopat

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Re: Has anyone seen an Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2007, 00:56 AM »
Greetings All,
OK - did all my background reading on thread and blog - understood (reading 'tween lines) from the JCM director general's use of the term fototrampeo  that there were cameras set up at strategic places with some kind of trip-wire/infra-red system to start recording - didn't have time to watch video all day, savouring it for after dinner viewing  :dancing: came across your refs. to Sp. lynx forum - thought I'd pop in to see their angle - read someone's opinion that the filming was obviously done by someone standing and releasing the animal from a cage 'cos otherwise the poor thing wouldn't run off like that - thought (like the person replying) that it was just sour grapes - zapped off to see the video and was convinced that the forum wet blanket was right: camera shaking/zooming in and out...

However, have now watched it 3 times and think that the fact the lynx is running doesn't necessarily mean he/she is running away from a person holding a camera - could also be the trip-wire and whirring of the camera has startled him and ... or is this just wishful thinking? Another thing bugging me now, but I'll have to go back and look again ...

Confused regs.,
Technopat
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 00:51 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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Re: Has anyone seen an Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2007, 01:09 AM »
PS.
Nick, Delibes is sceptical, but don't forget he's in charge of ex-situ breeding and would obviously like to have the monopoly on lynx breeding on Ib. Pen. If the JCM experiment of in-situ breeding were to prove successful ...  >:D

Remember what the Ecologistas en Acción guy said re. endogamy, etc.:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,8.msg2069/topicseen.html#msg2069

Clive, sorry, but can't remember what the context of your criticism of hi-tech at Doñana was and search function can't find anything under such nparameters ...

Regs.,
Technopat
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 00:51 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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Re: Has anyone seen an Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2007, 07:59 AM »
Greetings Nick and All,
Re. your "whether JCM is blameless" I certainly didn't mean to imply they were any better than other CC.AA. (does anyone know of any C.A. that has a good record on nature? >:D - I was just referring to a possible for others not mirroring the news ...

Over-optimistic-aka-naive-hope-(?)-that-news-is-true regs.,
Technopat
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 00:51 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2007, 10:27 AM »
Checking out the Montes de Toledo lynxes, I see that CBD-Habitat have recently finished a project there, but no mention of re-introduction. What is interesting is that it's the first project working on private and hunting land (which contradicts the sentences that TP highlighted as it presupposes conservation work in conjunction with the proprietors of the game reserves.) If this is the area in question, how come none of these hunters have seen (or shot) a lynx? Were they all sworn to secrecy? My big question now is why was it down to the JCM to broadcast the news and not a conservation group such as the fore-mentioned or Adena? O.K. I've just realised the possible consequences of "those damned ecologistas finding bichos here and spoiling our building plans" type of response. But still, it's strange that a press relesase wasn't co-ordinated and why now? It all seems a bit rushed  :noidea:
TP, there's a very clear photo of a lynx print on the link above. I like to think your news wouldn't have been pooh poohed, it's not as far-fetched as finding lynx in the frozen north of the Picos.
Re. the videos - the second shows the lynx running past the filmer coming from behind. Why wasn't it running away instead of shooting straight past? The videoer knew which way the animal was going to go? Were these lynx re-located for some reason?
Lots of questions about this great news, there's just something fishy about it.
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2007, 14:41 PM »
Sorry I didn't mean to put a damper on things. I was just cynical about there being such a big population.

Perhaps they've kept quiet because these are big private estates and they don't want the publicity. I think it is good that CLM has announced the news. They are the maximum authority in charge of wildlife in the area and it means they are taking it seriously - how would the region of Madrid have reacted I wonder.

PS Delibes hasn't been in charge of the Ex-situ programme for several years now. Its Astrid Vargas

Lots of questions though...

Nick
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 14:47 PM by nick »
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2007, 15:13 PM »
Yes, Lisa good point about coordination. I've posted this on the blog http://www.iberianature.com/spainblog/2007/10/23/iberian-lynx-in-castilla-la-mancha-2/

As more information starts to come out, it seems that there may well be a population of Iberian lynx in Castilla-la Mancha. If true, this is incredibly good news for the species, and the most remarkable news about wildlife in Spain this year. It increases the lynx's chance of recovery significantly because of increased distribution area, genetic diversity and sheer numbers. It seems La Junta de Castilla-la Mancha have been "secretly" monitoring lynxes for some time, and have now decided to make this public.  Detection has been made with photo-trapping and DNA analysis of scats. They seem to be saying that a significant number are individuals have been found.

 In a piece on their own websitewritten a couple of years ago they stated they're working on the detection and conservation of the Iberian lynx in the eastern Montes de Toledo: río Bullaque, arroyo Bullaquejo, Sierra de Picón, río Guadiana, Sierra Morena, Sierra del Relumbrar and río Guadalmena-Cerro Vico.

This is probably the area we're talking about.

 More here from WWF who praise the pioneering work done by La Junta de Castilla-la Mancha in rabbit conservation, fundamental for the survival of the lynx. WWF note that it is essential to establish a ecological corridor between Sierra Morena and Montes de Toledo.

Why the secrecy? Perhaps they've kept quiet because these are big private estates and they don't want the publicity. There are a number of unanswered questions though.
How many lynxes are there?
Did the other lynx authorities know about it?
I think it is good that CLM has announced the news. They are the maximum authority in charge of wildlife in the area and it means they are taking it seriously - how would the region of Madrid have reacted I wonder. BUT Why release the news now and why wasn't it wasn't co-ordinated, as Lisa on the forum, points out with environmental organisations and indeed with Astrid Vargas? More soon I'm sure.
More on the forum http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,8.msg6601.html#msg6601
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Offline nick

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2007, 15:22 PM »
And what I forgot to mention, as ecologistas en accion point out this surely casts doubt on surveys which had discounted the lynx in other areas such as Extramadura

http://www.ecologistasenaccion.org/spip.php?article9447
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Offline lisa

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Re: Has anyone seen a Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2007, 15:35 PM »
SteveT and All,  :lighttbulb: :lighttbulb: :lighttbulb: going back a page here I was looking at the reproductive cycle of lynx and came across this on page 2;
"El Apareamiento.
Los primeros encuentros entre macho y hembras estan cargados de tensión. El recelo y la rechaza serán la carta de bienvenida que la hembra presenterá al pretendiente.
Una vez aceptada la solicitud, ambos iniciarán un corto periodo de vida en pareja donde los juegos amorosos, la caza conjunta y los pequeños enfrentamientos ocuparán todas sus dedicaciones.
El momento de apareamiento viene precedido por un cortejo de varias fases, comenzando por una serie de choques de cabeza entre ambos individuos que continuará con la adopción, por parte de la hembra, de una postura característica conocida como "lordosis"..... "
So, it's foreplay play  :dancing:
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Technopat

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Re: Has anyone seen an Iberian Lynx???
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2007, 18:53 PM »
Greetings All,
Thanx for that CBD-Habitat link, Lisa. Interesting stuff.

Am interested in learning 'bout the technical aspects of photo-trapping (to see if the results would be similar to that shown in the video as regards camera shake, etc.).

I take it that the camera/s would be connected to a trip wire or infra-red system set to be triggered by any animal of certain characteristics (height, weight, etc.), obviously resulting in a certain amount of tomas falsas (En. anyone?), so to speak.

There would therefore be an automatic zoom feature involved, unless there were a remote control function (tho' not 24hrs/day) operated by someone with a monitor.

Lisa, re. your
Quote
Why wasn't it running away instead of shooting straight past?
. Would a lynx run straight past a camera person if it knew s/he were there? I suppose the camera operator is in a hide when the lynx is let out of the cage, if such is the case, or it is an "automated" camera on an unsteady tripod (being moved by tree branches).

So, bottom line is: with so many dedicated photographers out there, does anyone have any direct experience of photo-trapping, as opposed to webcamming, or know of anyone who could explain in words of one syllable and/or judge if the video was taken under suspicious circs.?

Regs.,
Technopat

PS.
Re. credibility of far-fetched sightings and pooh-poohing of same, I long ago realised, based on empirical evidence, that for a non-nature expert as scatter-brained as yours truly to get his/her contributions taken seriously on this 'ere great iberianatureforum (i.e. not be pooh-poohed by the People Who Know), one had to post scatological evidence using camera phones, satellite tracking and the like. Speaking of which, Tp's only posted pic. to date, taken on someone else's camera phone and posted thanx to patient explanations offered by both Simon and Jill, has been left to go the digital equivalent of yellow in an abandoned corner of iberianatureforum. Big incentive, folks! But revenge is sweet, and come Yuletide, Tp will be scattering images of scats right, left and centre  :dancing:
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 00:52 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266