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The little ice age..Pozos de nieves..snow wells...

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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2008, 16:26 PM »
Hi all

Bingo!  They used to use ice and salt in the ice houses to make icecream

http://www.canalmuseum.org.uk/ice/icecream.htm This reference gives chapter and verse.
SueMac
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Offline Clive

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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2008, 17:52 PM »
Certainly in "modern" times we know from all the links people have put in this topic that the ice was used for ice cream, beverages and medicinal uses such as lowering fever. Ice from the Sierra de Grazalema was transported to Seville for these purposes in the 18 and 1900's

But why would it be transported to the Doñana area of Cadiz?. I keep coming full circle and thinking of fish...

And most importantly SueMac...

"En la época musulmana se recogía la nieve en pozos y después se transportaba a toda Andalucía."

Did the Moors eat ice cream? Your link says that ice cream had been invented by the 1400's but I am struggling to believe that this would be the reason for "collection and transportation all over Andalucia"

Keep on searching... It's fascinating....

:)

Clive
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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2008, 18:41 PM »


http://www.lofti.dsu.edu/Ice%20Cream/Pages/ice_cream_history.htm
A Little History..... There are plenty of myths about where ice cream was first invented. Some suggest Marco Polo first brought ice cream from China. The earliest evidence of anything resembling ice cream actually does come from China.

In the 1500s, ice cream was developed in Italy. In the 1600s France and Spain developed forms of ice cream and in the late 1600s England had their own secret recipes for ice cream.

It wasn't until the 1700s that the Americas first dabbled in ice cream. In the 19th century ice cream became a popular treat with the advent of mechanical technology and modern freezing methods.

also
 
http://sendicecream.com/hisoficecrea.html

The first frozen dessert is credited to Emperor Nero of Rome. It was a mixture of snow (which he sent his slaves into the mountains to retrieve) and nectar, fruit pulp and honey. Another theory is Marco Polo, 13th century bard and adventurer, brought with him to Europe from the Far East recipes for water ices....said to be used in Asia for thousands of years.
 
 

SueMac

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Offline Clive

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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 19:00 PM »
The Abdet website (Excellent company that run active holidays in the Valencian Community) has a nice info page on snow wells during "modern" times

http://www.abdet.com/history-culture/neverras-snow-wells/snow-wells.html

I'm not making a lot of progress finding a specific Moorish lord that had a penchant for Ice Cream and sent out his slaves to collect ice for this purpose...... (Finding interesting anecdotes about Boabdil's skills as a lover though..(Sigh!) :)

Clive

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Offline Clive

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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 19:18 PM »
And from the El Pais article
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/andalucia/SIERRA/NIEVES/abrigo/pinsapos/milenarios/elpepuespand/20000128elpand_25/Tes

Quote
La Sierra de las Nieves debe su nombre a una ya extinta industria nevera. Desde la época musulmana, los vecinos de Tolox y Yunquera recogían nieve de la sierra y la guardaban en pozos, donde obtenían hielo que transportaban después al resto de Andalucía. El método consistía en depositar la nieve en pozos verticales, de los que se recogía el hielo a través de galerías laterales practicadas en la roca. Las viejas crónicas recuerdan cómo en 1624 los neveros de la sierra recibieron un importante pedido, y tuvieron que trasladar gran cantidad de hielo al Coto de Doñana, donde el duque de Medinasidonia ofreció una cacería en honor del rey Felipe IV.

A tantalizing clue "desde la epoca musulmaan"

And what was on the menu over 100 years after the musulman had been seen off the land.... in 1624 in honour of the King?

Iced creamed purple Gallinule :)

Clive
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Offline nick

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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2008, 20:34 PM »
General info on pozos de España here
http://html.rincondelvago.com/pozos-de-hielo.html
Nick
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Offline Clive

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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2008, 21:22 PM »
Interesting reading Nick.... Thanks...


I'll be back....
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 21:42 PM by Wildside »
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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2008, 20:24 PM »
Hi there to those wishing to know a little more about ice wells etc. 

As a result of thinking about Schloss Schwoebber and the ice house I googled and found - this:
http://www.schlosshotel-muenchhausen.com/site_eng/home/index_fs.htm (My old flat  three floors up on right hand side) 

So startled after more than 35 years to see it again I sent an email explaining about the memory of the ice house in the park. And if the Meiers were still around would they give them my regards.......... This morning I received a letter from Frau Meier, equally amazed that we have made contact after all this time and she sent me a plan of the old ice house.   This is in her hand - I am trying to remember how old she is now - she has to be over 80, Bless her. She has been very precise.  Again note the importance of hay bales.
SueMac
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2008, 00:14 AM »
Greetings SueMac,
Many thanx for that bit of Sherlockholmesing and please relay my thanx to Frau Meier for her kind contribution to furthering iberianatureforumers' knowledge of past times. I was struck by the tea-house on top - would it have overlooked the lake or something, or was it some kind of folly?

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2008, 01:18 AM »
PS.
I think I meant convey, not relay, my thanx - :booklook:
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2008, 09:18 AM »
Hi TP
I had a balcony that looked out over the park so it was my little bit of home from home.  If my memory serves me it was in the 18thC that the park was landscaped with English Specimen trees and walks so a little folly of a teahouse  in the park would fit into landscape gardening at that time.  The park then led onto the lake which was against the west side wall.  There were two swans who graced this lake.  Hans - cant remember the name of the other one.  One of my stark memories of the pine forests that surrounded the land was the screaming of animals who had rabies and the old wolf traps that I discovered by accident one day while walking with my 3 year old daughter!!

I have a problem now - I want to go and take up Sigrids offer of a visit......
All the bestSueMac
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2008, 12:44 PM »
Greetings SueMac and All,
The two swans weren't by any "odd occurrence" Little Hans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex#Little_Hans:_a_case_study_by_Freud) and Little Anna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_O. ) - (Technodevil goes here)

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
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Offline spanishfreelander

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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2008, 20:47 PM »
Hi Clive,
Was there no-one drinking "Vodka and Coke" back in those days in Grazalema?
Need a good scoop of ice in the summer for one of those..lol
Dave

Offline nick

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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2008, 14:27 PM »
Some friends of mine gave me yesterday a lovely book of a old photos of Barcelona. In it there is a photo from the 1960s of an ice seller with a cart laden with large blocks of ice.  I commentated that I was surprised to see such an image from so late in the century. Of course I had forgotten that fridges didn't arrive in Spain en masse to the mid-1960s. Three of my friends (in their mid 40s) remembered the ice sellers. One has a long scar on her finger from the age of four when it got trapped in the metal door of the ice cupboard.
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Offline Clive

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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2008, 16:03 PM »
I have just found out that up in the mountains here there was a huge bell that took 2 men to carry called the "campana de nieves". There is no one in the village of Grazalema that remembers anything about the snow wells now just vague memories of uncles or parents that used to work the snow.

The bell was last mentioned in a book called "the people of the Sierra", a fascinating book by an anthropologist called Julian Pitt-Rivers. In it he mentions a "Vito".. A man left his wife and children in the village to set up home in the valley with a women of bad reputation and all the locals showed their disapproval by visiting his house every night to make lots of noise. It happened in 1930 and was the biggest vito in living memory back then when the book was written in the 50's... They brought down the "bell of the snow" from the mountain to ring it all night...

So now I am after finding this bell of the snow or at least what happened to it..... I have no idea what it was for. The peaks where the snow wells were are around 5 kilometres from Grazalema so maybe it was there in case of an accident on the mountain? Or maybe it was for telling people below that there was ice ready to be collected...

Clive
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2008, 17:03 PM »
Greetings Clive and All,
Only ref. I have come across googling is the following, but when I started reading through it looking for further info., turns out it's a translation of something by Swift:
Quote
Sin embargo, allí están las prohibiciones, los toques de alarma, todos
prestos a entrar en movimiento, las campanas de nieve de la datura por si
acaso nos avisarían de poner esta barrera infranqueable entre los otros y
nosotros.
(However, there are the prohibitions, the alarms - all ready to go off, the snow bells of the datura * just in case we are told to set up this impassable barrier between them and us.) Looked promising - with me thinking that datura was some sort of Roman defensive construction left over in the hills ...

Trouble is the only reference to datura in Spanish is http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium (Jimson Weed, Gypsum Weed, Ditch Weed, Stink Weed, Loco Weed, Korean Morning Glory, Jamestown Weed, Thorn Apple, Angel's Trumpet, Devil's Trumpet, Devil's Snare, Devil's Seed, Mad Hatter, Crazy Tea, Malpitte, The Devil's Balls)  which leads one to doubt its relevance ...

Oh, well, these things are sent to ...

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
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Offline Sue

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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2008, 23:08 PM »


...although datura is a bell shaped flower...
Thinking of visiting the beautiful Sierra de Grazalema in Andalucia?
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2008, 23:18 PM »
Greetings Clive 'n' All,
Making headway on the snowbell front: going over past postings on this thread I came across Nick's excellent Rincón del Vago link (missed it first time round) which is very complete, and the following struck me:
Quote
El llenar un pozo de tamaño medio suponía entre recoger nieve, cortar hielo, transportarlo, llenar la nevera adecuadamente y acondicionarla, cerca de tres semanas de trabajo para una treintena de peones. Había alguna que requería el trabajo de 135 peones durante un mes entero. Estas operaciones y las de mantenimiento suponían una importante fuente de ingresos para el sostenimiento de jornaleros y familias humildes durante el invierno, época en la que carecían de trabajo en el campo.

And by one of those odd whatchamallems of Simon's, the phone rang and my friendly-neighbourhood historian was able to confirm my hypothesis, prompted by Clive's
Quote
Or maybe it was for telling people below that there was ice ready to be collected...
that the poor people (peones and jornaleros) were summoned to the hills with the first and successive snows to fill the wells. As for the bell itself, the most likely outcome is that it would have been melted down, a common source of income when straits were dire, either before or during the civil war.

Snowdrops-keep-falling-on-me-'ead regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Jill

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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2008, 00:34 AM »
How old are these snow wells?

I'm inclined to agree with Clive, and to believe that the ice was used to preserve fish - BUT in the Laura Ingalls Wilder book which I mentioned previously (somewhere on pg. 1 of this epic) there is no mention of the hard-won ice being used for anything OTHER than ice-cream making!
The events described in the book seem to date from around 1865.

I still haven't checked out that ice-house-shaped stone building down by the port in Cartagena...

Can anybody tell me, where are the nearest ice-wells and ice-houses to me? I think it was SueMac who said that there were some in the mountains near Murcia. If I knew the precise location I might be able to drag some of the crew over there...

Jill

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2008, 08:17 AM »
Hi Jill

The Pozos de Nieves are nearly at the top of the highest pont in the Sierra Espuna, near the air force station!!  I was reading some stuff again this week about Espuna and the article said they used donkeys to carry the ice up and down the mountain for the icecream making.  I dont know if you saw the drawing about the old ice house in Schwoebber which was used as refrigeration as well as icecream making.

Nice to see you are back
SueMac
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