Iberianature Forum

The little ice age..Pozos de nieves..snow wells...

  • 55 Replies
  • 33819 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jill

  • *
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
    • Jill Dickin Schinas

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2008, 13:29 PM »
I guess an icecream that equates to something like best cornish ice cream would have been as far away for most people as moon dust is to most of us.  Look dont touch.........
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2008, 14:51 PM »
Hi all

You all seem a little fixated on ice cream and the recent past :)  We have a lot of links and info now on this but has anyone come across anything in English about the use of snow wells over 700 years and up to 1400 years ago...? (approx)

"desde la epoca musulman" is the phrase I keep finding...

Nicks link in his previous post is excellent and touches on the subject quite well

Quote
Ateneo de Naucratis (III a.c.) cita los relatos de Chares de Mitilene sobre la campaña asiática de Alejandro el Magno, quien en el sitio de Petra (Jordania) en el 328 a.c. "mandó excavar treinta pozos neveros, que llenó de nieve y cubrió con hojas de roble". En los pasajes de Ateneo se alude a Jenofonte y sus Memorables, Protagórides, Dexicrates, Alexis, Euticles y otros antecesores de la antigua Grecia en relación con la nieve (enfriar bebidas, mezclar con vino ...).

Durante la antigüedad clásica se suceden los comentarios acerca de la utilización de nieve. Plinio el Viejo (s.I a.c.) recomendaba el vino enfriado con nieve. El bilbilitano Marcial (40-104 dc.), Plutarco (46-127) o Petronio describen banquetes con nieve para enfriar la bebida, Suetonio (75-160) comenta los baños enfriados con nieve, procedente de los Apeninos, de Nerón.

It makes me wonder if a study on this has even been done and published in English
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2008, 15:21 PM »
There's a job for your Clive!
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2008, 16:17 PM »
Hi Clive -  there is loads of stuff in English out there on the historyi of ice cream .  But I only gave the references of what was appropriate to the subject at the time - a little taster, a flavour of the subject even :

Ice Cream History

"The origins of ice cream can be traced back to the 4th century B.C. The Roman emperor Nero ordered ice to be brought from the mountains and combined with fruit toppings. In the 13th century, Marco Polo learned of the Chinese method of creating ice and milk concoctions and brought it back to Europe. Over time, recipes for ices, sherbets, and milk ices evolved and were served in the fashionable Italian and French royal courts. After the dessert was imported to the United States, it was served by George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Dolley Madison.

The use of ice mixed with salt to lower and control the temperature of the mix of ingredients proved a major breakthrough in the creation of ice cream as we know it. The invention of the wooden bucket freezer with rotary paddles facilitated its manufacture. "

So if Nero was eating it in  Rome you can bet your bottom dollar those skills were with the conquering Roman army here in Spain.
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2008, 20:33 PM »
Cheers SueMac. Its just fills me with a sense of wonder that the mountains I walk now were a source for "posh" food for the caliphs of Cordoba... What it must have been like collecting snow here in Grazalema at the time of the little ice age in winter!

I hope to find out more about the snow bell that was used here as soon as I can track down the oldest person in the village that can understand my accent and me theirs... :)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 20:51 PM by Wildside »
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline Jill

  • *
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
    • Jill Dickin Schinas
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2008, 23:08 PM »
Has anybody bought / read / translated the book to which Sue gave the link (near the beginning of this discussion)? It is called Las Pozos de Nieve de Sierra Espuna, and it's by Gines Rosa. According to the blurb, it is a study of the history and the economic and social activity of these "emblematic constructions" from the mid 16th century until the end of the "snow industry" in the 20th century.

This book would almost certainly tell us whether the snow wells really were used exclusively for making ice cream. The more I think about, the more I think that they probably were - but I'd like to know for sure.

If anybody happens to know the exact whereabouts of the building on the front cover, I would really love to see it!

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2008, 23:14 PM »
Meat, fish, anything perishable...and cold drinks
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita


Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2008, 00:31 AM »
Hi Jill
My reference to the pozos de nieves by the airstation at the highest point of the sierra are the ones in the photo though last time I saw them they were partially covered in snow so go get em gal. Or we could have a forum summit at the summit? :angel:
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Jill

  • *
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
    • Jill Dickin Schinas
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2008, 00:44 AM »
When I first read the Ingalls-Wilder book I was astounded. The idea that people would spend such a huge amount of time and energy getting ice, just so that they could turn it into ice cream was unbelievable. It still is pretty unbelievable! But I'm beginning to think that using ice to preserve food is a very modern concept.

In past times people were accustomed to preserving their meat and fish by smoking and salting it. And as for drinks - you can make drinks quite cold, even on a hot day, by using one of those earthenware jugs. (You just have to make the jug wet and put it in the breeze.)

People of the past were very self-reliant. I'm not sure that they could have risked depending on ice for the preservation of their food. Until we developed the ability to make the stuff and keep it frozen reliance on ice might have been rather hit and miss. One unusually hot weekend and you could lose the lot...

That, in any event, is the conclusion that I have come to.
But I'm very ready to be corrected by anyone who has read the Pozos de Nieve book!

Jill

P.S. Sue, I'm going to have to find a decent map. It's hard work getting this crew to abandon ship and take to the hills, but if I mention the possibility of snow that will get the girls interested!

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2008, 10:23 AM »
Tell em you are going to leave them behind and I will pick you up - that should do it.
SueMac

Ice would go nowhere in summer temperatures for preservation of food.  Hence reliance on smoking of food and everyday marketing.


(non relevant content removed. Please try to stay on topic thanks..Wildside)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 18:08 PM by Wildside »
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2008, 18:05 PM »
Yesterday I had lunch with one of the oldest ladies in the village of Grazalema. 86 years old and so sharp she stabbed me with her wit....

She told me that she remembers the aftermath of the big "vito" involving the snow bell that happened in the 1930's but as far as she could remember the snow wells here were worked before she was born and she doesn't know what happened to the big bell of the snow...

This means ice production here stopped before 1930 because if she remembers the big vito from 1930 she would certainly remember if the men were working the sierras for ice...

:)
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2008, 16:08 PM »
Hi all,

I found a brief mention of snow wells connecting them to Arab origin at

THE LIBRARY OF IBERIAN RESOURCES ONLINE
ISLAMIC AND CHRISTIAN SPAIIN THE EARLY MIDDLE AGES
http://libro.uca.edu/ics/ics7.htm

Quote
A host of other techniques reveal the same pattern of diffusion from east to west within the Islamic world, and thence to the Latin West. The case of sugar refining, a Chinese factory-scale technique which diffused westward with the crop itself, is obvious, although the Christians did not acquire the technique until the early fourteenth century. Of eastern provenance also were the tanning techniques that produced a number of soft leathers: guadameci (after the oasis of Ghadames), which was sheepskin tawed with alum, and Cordoban, which was vegetable-tanned goatskin. These methods were developed in al-Andalus, probably on eastern or North African models, and subsequently diffused in the Christian West. A more inferential case is the snow well, a rudimentary but effective method of preserving snow for use in cooling in summertime. The similarity of snow wells in Spain and in the Islamic East, as well as the citation by Spanish authors (e.g., Monardes) of Arabic pharmacological prescriptions, including snow as an ingredient, lead to an assumption of cultural continuity.(65)

In fact the whole site is quite fascinating...
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2008, 16:22 PM »
Greetings Clive and All,
Many thanx for that site - as you say, fascinating. The following URL gives a list of the full collection of publications and resources they have available:
http://libro.uca.edu/title.htm

Are-there-really-enough-hours-in-a-day-for-all-this? regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Petrea

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 801
  • Cómpeta - Axarquía
    • Cómpeta Naturaleza
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2010, 16:40 PM »
Better late than never:  I just came across this topic, which dates to the time before I joined this great forum.

On the summit of mt. Maroma (2069m), there used to be pozos de hielo up to the first ice making factories were build in 1931. The business started about 200 years before. The name Maroma is reported to refer to the thick ropes that the neveros  were using in their dangerous work. The ice was taken down to Malaga on mules. Used to preserve fish, cooling drinks - and ice cream!

Source: "There are no Flies... only Foreigners" by Jim Lovelock and Lorraine Cavanagh, a very entertaining book about foreigners moving to a village in Andalucia. It contains a lot of history etc. of the area as well.

I also recall that a guide in Mexico told us about the people of the ancient cultures making ice cream. I think it was the zapotecs of Monte Alba.

So, ice cream is not a new invention!

Saludos
Petrea

PS: I still need to find out what the mountain was called before the "ice age!" I guess it was Tejeda, which is still the name of the highest peak (and the nature park).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 08:37 AM by Petrea »
Cómpeta Naturaleza,  http://picasaweb.google.com/104328707567851681445

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.   (Thomas R. Dewar)