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Hunting for Tore

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Offline lisa

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« on: May 09, 2007, 08:46 AM »
Following on from http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php?topic=215.20 (Sleeves half-way up.)
So many points raised...
I'll start by first stating that personally I'm not completely anti-hunting, see this thread http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php?topic=34.0 What gets me in cases like these is the amount of money some men (and just men) are willing to pay to be led by the hand like babies by guides (that do at least have experience and an understanding of the wilderness environments) to bravely shoot a wild animal and then have their photo taken with the kill, gloating pride in their prowess glaringly evident. (Sleeves all the way up now.)
I understand that polar bears are an aggresive species and that carrying a gun, when in their territory, for self-protection is necessary. However, man-induced (?) global warming is leading to the polar bear's further encroachment on "human territory", hence the need to cull. Couldn't this lead to the eventual end of their existence as pack ice melts?  Of course, this particular animal had to be (luckily?) killed because we can't have them interbreeding willy-nilly.  >:D (Am I allowed to use that one or is it just for Technopat?)
As to Norwegian (and the same applies to Iberian) wolves, how sad that even taking in to account the huge disparateness in numbers of sheep compared to wolves, the latter are still the big bad wolf. It's about time that farmers (who tend to be among the most conservative of men) evolved into an intelligent and sentient being. They might then have the sense to adopt precautionary measures. Perhaps a little interbreeding of our own species wouldn't go amiss here.
And so to Spain. I can't think of any creature that needs hunting/culling at the moment, apart from possibly boar, and then would they not self-regulate their numbers if left to their own devices?

That's all for now except;
Tore, you'll be very welcome as long as you don't go out and hire a quad bike  :o

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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2007, 13:29 PM »
Greetings Lisa and Tore and All,
As you say, "so many points raised" to which I add "and many more to raise", but will stick to the ones you include above:
1. "gloating pride in their prowess glaringly evident" is probably what most gets my goat, too. Necessary to include fishing here, also, of course. However, the "just men" is, in my op., just a bit too easy an explanation. I would suggest that there is an ancestral/socio-cultural need for men to do such daft things (maybe they haven't heard of evolution?) precisely to impress their fellow man and any woman that might just happen by, i.e. delighted at being given a fur coat. I said elsewhere that I don't have much of an opinion 'bout the intelligence of dogs (in general), but I must say that I continuously meet men who are even less intelligent than some of the dogs I have met.

2. "polar bears are an aggressive species and that carrying a gun, when in their territory, for self-protection is necessary" Fine, but on a daily basis, not needing to head off into bear territory, I, and many of you out there, get into/onto our chosen means of transport and literally risk death at the hands of some aggressive killer. Never mind trying to cross a zebra crossing (on foot). If on that rare occasion you happen to lose your cool and increpar the person (man OR woman), you risk, at best, an unpleasant scene (on top of the real fright of approaching death) and at worst GBH (my brother-in-law has a solid metal bar by his seat, others carry baseball bats).

3. Although the  >:D was publicly and solemnly assigned to yours truly, am more than delighted for others to use it. (Can you imagine what this forum would be like if we just sent birthday greetings to each other all the time >:D?) What would be the consequences of "hunters" instead of being forced to kill an attacking wild animal, were forced to load their guns with highly-effective projectile versions of the Mickey Finn (they could still get their photo taken AND the local wildlife folk could stick that chip in the beast's ear and get their census, etc., done)?

4. Farmers (both men AND women), or let's just say people who live in close contact with nature, are possibly the most conservative of "citizens" (bad word, but fits, more or less). Or at least those who were brought up in the sticks. They live and work hard, have less access to modern amenities (education and health services). We all know of highly educated townsfolk who have moved out into the country (real country, not the village just off exit 72 on the motorway) and tried to live "naturally" with, on many occasions, far from happy results.

5. In order to ensure we have "intelligent and sentient beings" interbreeding is def. where it's at - the whole story of Man's (AND Woman's) evolution is based on that. (Too lengthy a subject for this thread, as it would take it off into other issues such as immigration, etc., but inbreeding = involution.)

6. And so to Spain ... but first, just what are the parameters for culling? Is it tradition (based on a pre-ecologically-aware society's criteria?) that calls for it to be done at certain times of the year/every x years? On the other hand, just how do boars "self-regulate their numbers"?

7. Haven't rolled my sleeves up yet  :).

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Clive

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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 18:56 PM »
Hola,

Point 6 interests me the most.

Where I live there is what a call the "como siempre" attitude. vegetables are sown according to tradition. I was a laughing stock last Christmas week when I was seen planting potatoes in the ground for an early crop....I figure things have changed and the proof is in the evidence. I will be eating new potatoes next week when the locals around here have to wait six more weeks because they only just put theirs in the ground......Como siempre.......

To hunting and point six I say that the people I see on a daily basis are hunting (and living) in a "como siempre" fashion. They have not seen (and I wonder if they even care) that things have changed. Wild animal stocks are not at the high levels they were 100 years ago...Wolves DO NOT need to be culled any more but they are by both licensed hunters and poachers....The people are NOT starving (in fact they are very overweight and obesity is becoming a general problem in the population), Yet the hunters still "cull" thousands of "zorzales" (All four species of thrush family) and eat them at a nice big barbecue when they have enough of them to fill a pie....

We do not live in a world where "rook sacks" are for collecting baby rooks to eat They are for carrying our camera gear and sandwiches on a hike. Nor do we bake four and twenty blackbirds in a pie. Times have changed...

If anybody hasn't read the caza mayor and caza menor threads in this board then please go back and read them...You will see the dates and times of hunting are an affect of the "como siempre" attitude, an attitude that, quite frankly I am fed up with.

My neighbours know now not to tackle me on the subject any more. My rabbit meat is sweeter, my vegetables are tastier and are harvested for a longer period. This is because I try to work with nature AS IT IS NOW...Not like it was before...They come to my house saying que trabajo...que bonito...whilst their houses are surrounded by goat overgrazed dried out patches of once paradise.
Worn out tired land that has been systematically drained of almost all of its bio diversity...

"Como siempre" ?

And as a disclaimer I am describing most of "civilised world" not just Andalucia or Spain...However, my experiences over the last few years have been in Andalucia.

Clive

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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 22:00 PM »
Nice one, Clive!
Glad you picked up on point 6 - it was my personal fav., too and I tried to make it as subtle as poss. - Great minds think alike  :)

Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
I really envy you your new spuds! (With home-grown dill sprinkled over 'em?)
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 08:33 AM »
Sticking for a while to Technopat's system;
1. Yes, agreed. The urge to hunt is still in (some) men's genes. Would also like to add that I'm all for fleecing the rich trophy hunters to the max. if the proceeds end up going towards environmental conservation.
2. Not sure you can equate the dangers of being in any potentially dangerous animal's territory with being injured in traffic - one being natural, the other not. (Though the dangers of man to man violence is something else entirely.)
4/5. I was actually imagining a seminar, or some such get-together, of (male) Nobel prize-winners in a rural area with a high female to male ratio. Suppose this may work if carried out on a regular basis.
6. I was wondering about self-regulation because many (most/all?) species confine their numbers naturally according to size of available habitat and quantity of food available. Jabalí (by the way, I'm so pleased to have just discovered the scientific name Sus scrofas - rather unfortunate I think) are growing in numbers in Spain due to abandoned farming land, rural exodus to urban areas and the spread of forests (can that last be right?) Info gleaned from here http://www.vertebradosibericos.org/mamiferos/susscr.html
I'll leave you for now with a quote from that well-known hunter and writer of light fiction, Wilbur Smith. "I shot my first animal with my father when I was seven or eight and I refused to take a bath for days afterwards because I was so proud of the blood I was covered in."
Still looking forward to Tore's thoughts on this...... >:D
Meanwhile here are a couple of links to look at on wild boar/jabalí;
http://www.britishwildboar.org.uk/
http://www.a-cazar.com.ar/
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Offline lucy

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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 10:33 AM »
About culling boars: I read somewhere that it's good for them as a species, in the sense that it weeds out the sick and the weak.  The article implied that the number of boars currently living in the Collserola park outside Barcelona is unnaturally high, causing problems such as wandering out on the roads and causing traffic accidents, straying into gardens and rooting through dustbins, or even being fed by delighted humans.  The suggestion was that sickly inferior individuals were surviving and the boar stock was deteriorating, since there were no natural predators. As people wouldn’t take kindly to having wolves reintroduced to Collserola, culling was the only option.

But it was interesting to see in the webpage on British wild boars that in Poland the wolves prefer to give the boars a wide berth, choosing easier targets like deer, suggesting that boars don’t have to worry very much about “natural” predators anyway.

Someone told me that the Barcelona-area boars are hybrids, since boar-domestic pig cross-breeds had been released, and the result is they breed faster.  If this is true then the current overcrowding is due to human meddling. 

Offline nick

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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 11:02 AM »
I know in the Sierra de la Culebra boars are the second favourite prey for wolves after red deer. Tying in with above about selection, red deer in the Sierra de la Culebra are the largest in "regimen abierta" (free to roam - in no way fenced) in Spain, precisely because of the selection pressure by wolves. And so top prices are paid. I don't know about boar.

Here's a scat. Unmistakable. It is unlikely wolves tackle full-grown male boars. Note the dark black excrement underneath. A wolf has marked its presence directly on top of a fox’s excrement. A reminder of who is the boss


And here is a decription and photo of young wolves practicing hunting skills on boar family http://www.iberianature.com/spainblog/2007/02/21/wolves-hunting-boar-in-the-sierra-de-la-culebra/

I believe I've gone off topic.
Nick
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 14:45 PM »
I've read that lynx too predate on boar.
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Offline nick

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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 14:49 PM »
Iberian?
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
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http://www.iberianature.com/
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2007, 16:34 PM »
"En cuanto al papel del jabalí como presa, destaca la depredación del lobo, especialmente sobre los más jóvenes. Durante los primeros meses de vida, durante su etapa de rayón, el jabalí puede ser víctima del ataque de águilas, zorros o linces."
From the vertebradosibericos link;
http://www.vertebradosibericos.org/mamiferos/susscr.html
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Offline Tore

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2007, 19:22 PM »
As I stride forward into this fray, I must emphasise that this will be stilted at best. Space (on the forum) and time in a day that is limited to 24 hours and regulated by 4 offspring and a partially restrictive prenuptial agreement, dictates so. Therefore after each foray, it will be necessary to retire and hopefully return to fight another day.

Hunting, a few rambling opinions, facts and figures…
People who object to hunting are in my opinion, typified by the animal rights activists.
These are by and large the most (self-) destructive group of individuals of all. Examples abound and for instance in releasing scores of mink and fur foxes into the wild in misguided attempts to be kind, they extol far greater levels of cruelty on the animals themselves and the local environment than they are ever capable of imagining.
On the other hand most hunters who come from countries with long traditions and respect for nature are typically the best and most devoted protectors and keepers of their environment. Those who oppose them out of blind ignorance, do so often in some uneducated misguided belief of their own virtues. To oppose hunting because it is just that, achieves nothing more than at best, to confirm one’s allegiance with all those other highly “constructive” groups of individuals, the animal rights people. There are of course more of them, including those who oppose fishing, as it is considered unduly cruel or those who believe that even picking a flower will cause pain.
So who are these hunters?

In Norway, hunting is by the people for “the people” (sounds like a communist slogan, but it’s actually based on the ancient laws of Jante, to the tune of “though shall not be better than anyone else”). What is yours, is mine; hence pick up your dog’s litter as it is polluting our (your and my) ground.

On to that “just men” phrase, and again I can only base my comments on my knowledge of Norwegian statistics, though I believe that I am slowly starting to grasp how things are done here in Spain.
Of 141700 active hunters in Norway in 2005/06, only a little over 7000 (5%) were women, though there are currently 33266 registered female hunters in Norway. So, yes the statistics indicate that men are somewhat dominant in this field of interest. Though, unfortunately this is most likely because the real outdoors may be considered a bit rough by some. 
Hunting though does provide insight and knowledge, which most people would agree will counter ignorance. In Norway, to be a registered hunter, involves time and effort as you have to go through courses and tests demonstrating levels of proficiency in such areas as species identification, environmental laws and gun handling and safety. Hunting costs are not necessarily high as is often the case in Spain.
Costs brings me to another issue; “amounts of money”. Again I think it is important to know what one is talking about. On hunting that costs money, I can honestly say (contrary to what some individuals might claim), the lesser percentage of women who hunt are for example also well represented on the “expensive” full package hunting safaris in Africa (fact based on my own experience, as my father ran a very large hunting outfit in East Africa for a number of years). A quick search on hunting operators webpage’s (also those showing at the main Spanish hunting fair in Madrid in February) will reveal, that women are increasingly becoming valued clients. However costs are a cultural issue and there are clearly geographical differences.
Last year I was offered to hunt partridge in Spain for 1500 Euros (every second weekend for the 4-5 month season, with a bag limit of 2 birds each time). That was apparently a good offer, but insane by my own standards!!!
In Norway, the land belongs to everyone (even a farmer can not prevent you from moving on his land, as long as the crops are not growing (which is more than half the year).
 In Spain an inordinate amount of the land that I have come across seems to be privately owned and this is reflected in some of the prices one can expect to pay for hunting here in Spain. example; near Madrid you can pay for “a Shoot Package, anticipating a daily bag of 500 partridges at 21.000 € per day, including 1 night accommodation, for a group of up to 8 guns”. http://www.dianacampo.net/info2-1.html
As I walk the land and see the amounts of empty cartridges lying around, I understand that both attitudes and respect are maybe different here in Spain.
Here is another recent example of hunting attitudes in Southern Europe; this case is from Malta (I also observed this same approach in Lebanon some years ago). This page on today’s BBC news says a lot: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6609247.stm.
I believe this sort of mentality has clear parallels with that utter ignorance displayed by animal rights activists.

On a retiring note, after spending some years in the Middle East, I venture to say that democracy has no real foothold until educational levels are well established; the void left by illiteracy is often quickly filled by religion. Some might say that the same could apply to attitudes on hunting. An obvious illiteracy may quickly be filled by an ignorance that unfortunately will be glaringly obvious to those versed in the ways of true hunting.
I will return (and still hope for a holiday up in Los Picos).
Tore
Tore

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 01:21 AM »
Greetings All,
As I can see that this particular board/thread will, unlike others which are, for example, devoted to identifying luridly-coloured orchids, butterflies, jellybabes and the like, be ongoing for quite some time, and as Tore rightly points out, some of us do in fact have other matters to attend to, plus the fact that the issue is just that wee bit more complicated than others on the forum, I would like to suggest some kind of limit to the number of items introduced into each reply. This is because, at least in my own case, I have mentally ordered, es un decir, two dozen or so things that have cropped up just on this thread just today.

Starting more or less from the top, which means that by this time next week I'll hopefully have got round to Tore's latest, wanted to reply to Lisa re: dangers of man to man violence, was that was precisely the point I was making - i.e. the very great possibility of me suffering GBH on a day-to-day basis does not warrant me going round the streets armed to the teeth, however much many people would advocate such a situation. Re: seminar, or some such get-together, not quite sure if I got the right end of the stick there, but suspect that there's a double entendre in there somewhere :-\.

On to Lucy's ironic comment on having read somewhere 'bout culling weeding out the feak and weeble specimens. Yeah, right. Let's take for granted that the guys doing the culling are able to spot the difference 'tween a healthy indiv. and a sickly one at 20 metres through the undergrowth. Maybe they round 'em all up in a boar pen and then give them the OK, or not. Lucy's mention of the hybrids does make a lot of sense. Opens up a whole new market for pata negra boar (or does it already exist?)

Re. Tore's hunters who come from countries with long traditions and respect for nature, assuming that the long tradition reference is to hunting, at least in Spain is a contradiction in terms, as Tore himself admits to being perplexed on this issue, and as both Clive and I have mentioned elsewhere.

Making an superhuman effort to stop here, out of respect for everyone else's free time, household chores and eyesight, and before I start rambling, I'm outta here!

Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
Tore, particularily enjoyed your use of fray and foray within the same paragraph!
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 08:34 AM »
With an effort to keep this fairly orderly;

Lucy, isn't it always human interference that causes problems?

Tore, I think you're leading us all into a false sense of security by encouraging declaration of our agreement (anyone disagree?) that extreme animal activism can cause havoc to nature and that mass release of creatures is self-defeating, before going in for the kill  :o
The bad hunting practices that you mention could also maybe solved by my evolutionary/revolutionary theory. (Technopat, I'm only half-joking here.) Spanish respect for nature does seem to be somewhat lacking though I see on this hunting website that there's a lot of informed info. on much Spanish wildlife but can't help being worried by the big bear photo. Bet at soon as the numbers are big enough in Spain (4.500 in Romania apparently), they'll be out with their guns and I'll be wondering why I bothered.
http://www.fedecaza.com/esp/canalfauna/fauna/

Technopat/Clive, I've read that in season only male boar are shot. How close does a hunter have to be to kill a boar, I wonder?

Tore, I think it would be interesting if you could let us know why you hunt, the enjoyment you derive from it etc. You'd be leading me out of my ignorance and understanding of that element of the subject at least. Personally I've never spoken to a hunter on the subject so would appreciate the enlightenment even if lacking the empathy.

Amount of italicised words = sleeves definitely up  ;)
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Offline Dave

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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2007, 18:06 PM »
Hi Tore
It is not often I enter the fray into the hunting debate, but after your eloquent and one sided tirade I feel I must.
Misguided animal activists I agree with, yes they do seem to do some stupid things, possibly more out of frustration than ignorance, but unfortunately attacks on fur farms and releasing mink etc. into the wild is only part of the story. What right has man to dress in animal fur? In the Stone age it may have been acceptable, but now, pure vanity, from ignorant people who have not seen the condition, that many of these fur animals are kept in, I have, I know.
As far as hunting is concerned, it depends to what purpose hunting is used, to provide food for the table out of necessity, fine. To provide food for a restaurant, I am not so sure, it would be great if the amount of money paid to hunt was used to support protective measures for all animals, but I suspect it is used to line the pockets of the organisers. Yes of course hunting is a 'man thing' who else but males would be so arrogant, 'me Tarzan, you Jane'. In England, passing reference only, we had Fox hunting, so aptly summed up by Oscar Wilde as ' the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible', mainly fairly wealthy people, out exercising their horse, while the hoi poloi, doffed caps and opened gates for them, remember I was born and raised on a farm, and knew the sort of people who hunted, they would whip you soon as look at you if you did not move fast enough, personal experience, as I was only the son of a farm worker.
Is it not interesting to see the phrase ' hunters are the best conservers'. or words to that effect Try telling that to the millions of birds of prey that have been poisoned, trapped and shot over the years to protect 'important'  species such as Grouse, Partridge and others, acres of land forbidden to the public until the mass protests of the 20th century, hunters are not interested in preserving anything that does not have hunting value, and in most cases greed has caused them to fail in their conservation attempts, witness the mass destruction of the North American bison, only killed for their hides, the meat left rotting in the sun.
I see no point or merit in hunting, once when young I was given an air rifle, I stupidly shot a sparrow with it, I was so sickened with what I had done, I disposed of the gun and vowed never to shoot again, unless it was against a paper target, I was a good shot, could hit a 5 euro piece at 200 metres with a Lee Browning .303 (Air Training Corps in the '60's) but never felt the need to shoot an animal with it, far better to use a camera lense.
If a certain species become to numerous, we should use expert shots to cull them, but often Nature does a better job, too many + not enough food =  death
Regards
Dave

Offline Tore

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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2007, 18:28 PM »
All,
I agree that this is going to be erratic (certainly on structure and quite likely on content)
So here are a few random replies.
On carrying a weapon; in some places where people live it is mandatory by law (as I already mentioned, this is certainly the case on Spitzbergen/Svalbard where there are appr.2500 inhabitants). Even going to school requires having a weapon nearby. However Spitzbergen is one of the exceptions, as Polar bears (in difference to most other species) are not only overly inquisitive, but can be “aggressive” on regular occasions, due to a constant need to search for food under difficult climatic conditions. I still believe that 9 times out of 10, you would be fine without a weapon, but that just doesn’t cut it.
I lived 2 years on the Norwegian-Russian border (actually dog sledded all 196 km of it too). Anyway, it is fairly rural area (my wife would have to drive 21 km one-way just to buy a toilet role) and although I would not say that it was necessary to carry a weapon, it is an area in which you could realistically come across a wolf or a bear (unfortunately not a high risk). With these species I would definitely claim that you don’t require a weapon (and such is the law). I agree that in most instances, animals will stay away from humans. Even when diving for sharks (a classic notoriously mis-stereotyped creature), I find that they mainly shun away, only overcome by their curiosity. My point was that there are exceptions.

For the next point, I have to state that I am a die-hard evolutionist (yes, I agree with your 8 chapters, Technopat, and am an avid reader of the Economist myself). I believe that the polar/Grizzly hybrid is a direct result of man’s encroachment on these species territories, so the question is, do we rectify our mistakes? We certainly cause problems and I believe that we have a direct responsibility to correct them.

On culling; In Kosovo, KFOR (the NATO controlled military forces) forbade the possession of all weapons by local civilians in 1999. Over the course of a few years this had a significant impact on the environment. The traditional, widespread and well regulated hunting of wild boar was stopped and we experienced an immense climb in their population. The boar not only wreaked havoc on the farmers’ crops, but also caused noticeable changes in vegetation distribution and balance. Culling became a requirement. A greater problem was the feral dog population, which exploded for much the same reasons (though the conflict had resulted in a massive release of dogs initially). The dogs grouped together in packs and became particularly aggressive during the winter season. At its peak, the feral dog population in Kosovo was estimated by UNMIK to be over 200,000 dogs, mainly centred on Pristina. Apart from spreading diseases including rabies and decimating a substantial part of the local wildlife, we registered repeated attacks on humans and eventually had 3 children killed in less than a year. KFOR was compelled to engage in culling and as an example; one unit culled more than 3500 dogs in 3 years.
On a side note, it is interesting to note than when Norwegian KFOR shot and killed a person, during the riots in 2004, there was no mention of the incident in Norwegian media. However when it came to the Norwegian media’s attention that Norwegian soldiers were engaged in culling dogs, the public outrage was incredible. It was front page news for 3 weeks and the prime ministers office was drenched with protests. Most people had no idea what culling is, why it is it done or how it is done. For the Norwegians soldiers this is highly regulated, under strict supervision of qualified veterinarians.

So at what distance does one shot a boar? In Spain they do not necessarily shoot the boar, but hound it with dogs before delivering a coup de grace with a knife. Depending on national regulations boar may be shot with a shotgun (slugs) typically at maximum 20 m or with a high-powered rifle (soft mantled ammunition, which paradoxically enough, we are not allowed to use on people in war, according to the Geneva convention, as it could kill them) out to 200m (typically static) or normally out to 100m (moving). It depends on the hunter, but most shots are probably done at 30-100m hunt,
I have shot ringed seal at 110m (my most difficult and physically exhausting type of hunt ever).
So, why do I hunt?
It is first and foremost a reason to be outdoors. I spend and have always spent as much time outdoors as possible. At my worst (best?), I used to clock more than 120 nights a year in tents and snow-holes. Hunting was just an additional excitement in managing to track down and meet animals in their environment, though I enjoy it now just as much without a gun.
Everything I ever shot was used to the full. To cleanse a reindeer and use every scrap and piece of the animal is easy. To use days to clean the blubber off a 150 kg ringed seal in minus 20 degrees is not, but nothing is left to waste.
Today, I only hunt small game. I hunt as recreation, enjoying the solitude of nature (of which hunting is only a minute part), and introducing my children to all the pleasures and responsibilities involved with nature (they have always helped to pluck the pigeons and clean the game, but my greatest achievement is making them feel at home and establishing a genuine respect for nature and our responsibilities towards it). I hunt mainly to work my dogs. It gives me far greater pleasure to see my Chesapeake Bay Retrievers working under extreme conditions amongst icy flows in a strong flowing river and retrieving the mallard, than actually downing the bird itself. My hunting activities are now far and few between (I have not hunted since I came to Spain), but I know that when I go back to my farm in Norway, I can come home after work, pick up a shotgun, take the dogs and walk for 10 minutes to bag a brace of duck for the pot.
That will never change.
Tore (the bard)
Tore

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2007, 16:30 PM »
Greetings Tore and All,
As usual, any posting/post on the hunting thread is too dense to deal with in one go, so will just focus on a couple of points, plus one intentionally provocative comment Tore included.

1. "9 times out of 10, you would be fine without a weapon" - One of my points is precisely that. Obviously (?) legitimate self-defence is acceptable by most standards, and being armed under certain circs. would be a simple matter of common sense, but there is a difference 'tween shooting an animal at close range 'cos it has unfriendly intentions and shooting it from a distance at which its bark might just be worse than its bite. People, even when experienced in different walks of life or speciality, react in ways which are very often unpredictable (?) when pushed to extremes. And you know that in group situation, a person's uncontrolled reaction can often compromise the integrity of the other members of that same group. (Heading off subject a bit, but valid as a tangent. Tore and others can surely cite many examples, but as I said, tangenting a bit here).

2. Tore's intentionally p. comment was comment "though I enjoy it now just as much without a gun". That sums it all up nicely, thank you.

Regs.
Technopat
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 20:23 PM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2007, 21:04 PM »
Greetings Dave and All,
As usual, Dave has forayed into the fray with his habitual no-nonsense common sense approach to life - here we all are, raving and ranting 'bout polar bears, etc. when we should be looking after the common or garden flora and fauna (and fungi) right under our noses - "Think global - act local". All of which is also included in Tore's mention of a sort of illiteracy in hunting, as well as most other aspects of life, but ...

And your mentioning Oscar Wilde's summing up of the situation (how long ago?): 'the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible', is just great!

Your reference "while the hoi polloi, doffed caps and opened gates" for the hoity-toity, is succintly summed in Miguel Delibes' books Los santos inocentes, of which a film version was made, Las ratas, and Diario de un cazador.

Re: "the millions of birds of prey that have been poisoned, trapped and shot over the years to protect 'important' species such as Grouse, Partridge and others, ..." was a point I tried to raise elsewhere about how owners of hunting grounds are not in the least interested in nature conservation, as neither are the hunters/punters who make up the vast majority of hunters in Spain (which I am sure is not the case in Norway).

But then we get back to the issue of what one can 'ethically' kill (not cull). As I mentioned above, killing in [genuine] self defence is, I think, legit., even if we are referring to protected species. I'm sure there's no doubt that most of the damage attributed to wolves (and possibly bears) is in fact caused by feral dogs. But how is it possible to justify shooting a harmless elk - OK. let's keep to the Ib. Pen., gamo. corzo, rebeco ...?

Kids queueing up to use ADSL ...

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2007, 23:05 PM »
I'm glad too that you've waded in Dave (with your sleeves way up).
A couple of interesting things I've found:

An ayuntamiento in Spain (can't remember which) raffled trophy wolf hunting which according to Ciconia encourages poaching by raising the "status" of the hunters involved.

"Estas subastas vuelven a meter al Lobo en el círculo de los trofeos de caza. Esto supone además el incremento del furtivismo, ya que, a sabiendas de la impunidad existente, y de las ridículas 100.000 pesetas de multa en el improbable caso de que los detengan; los cazadores que no hayan podido comprar legalmente la muerte de un lobo, se echarán al monte a por su furtivo y codiciado trofeo que podrán obtener con triste facilidad.
Intentar justificar estas subastas por los supuestos beneficios para los habitantes de las zonas loberas carece de credibilidad y resulta un insulto para las gentes de los pueblos. El dinero pagado por la muerte del lobo que recibe el Ayuntamiento, no tiene ningún reflejo real y directo, ni sobre los ganaderos afectados, ni sobre las economías de la población rural, que más bien, una vez más, es expoliada de uno más de su preciado patrimonio natural."

They also mention that trophy hunters will always want to "bag" the best specimens. Where does that leave the gene pools of the prey involved? More here http://es.geocities.com/biologialobo/caza.html

As to the "control" of abundant wild boar (and anything else I imagine) by the beating with dogs method, Defra suggests this could be counter-productive by spreading the "problem" causing an increase in their range. http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/vertebrates/reports/PB11232C-wild-boar.pdf They suggest the use of electric fencing for protecting farmland. Now there's an idea for the intellectually-challenged farmer.

Tore, balls for the dogs and a camera for you? 8)
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2007, 23:36 PM »
Greetings Lisa and All,
What's in them there tablets you were taking for that bite? They def. sharpen the wit!
Thanx for those links. But 'fraid electric fencing is no good - we all know that the intellectually-challenged ganaderos will just claim that those dastardly wolves have found a way round/through it in order to do their wicked stuff. No, 'ang about! They need to find that out and prove it before they actually invest their money.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2007, 16:21 PM »
Greetings All,
Well aware that our Great and Wise Administrators, solely or jointly, will give me a rapapolvo (translation anyone?) for including this non-Ib.-Pen. issue here, but I just couldn't resist posting the below, re. the electric fencing/intellectually-challenged farmers Lisa mentioned. I came across it while gooooogling for protective measures for farmland, etc. and remembered an article read years ago which explained that the invention and widespread installation of barbed wire was not only coincidental to, but directly responsible for, the amazing economic development of the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_wire_match

It seems that our species has evolved somewhat since then. Meet y'all at the Neo-creationist thread?

Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
I want to be a butterfly/golden eagle in my next life.

Pps.
If you think that's not effective enough, take a gander at razor wire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_wire
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 16:27 PM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266