Iberianature Forum

Bullfighting

  • 44 Replies
  • 38052 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tore

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
« on: June 20, 2007, 22:31 PM »
Greetings all,
I had not really intended to engage in this topic, until I noted the words above "I think that all agree on this one..", so there was my red flag.
Depending on the company I'm in I may be considered to be the one rotten apple, or I can assume there really is no a consensus on this after all.
I for one may defend animal rights (and I have defended trees in my time, too), but I am no radically minded emotionally overblown treehugger.
A certain sensibility and rational must prevail.
I usually try to discuss issues that I have at least some insight into, and not solely because I hold an emotional postion on them, so here we go.
When discussing the pros and cons of bullfighting, it is obviously important to know what one is talking about. Unfortunately a majority of bullfighting opponents have no real insight in to what it is all about, let alone have ever witnessed a real bullfight. It’s a bit like saying one does not like custard pie, without ever having tasted it. Recently a friend told me, “but they torture the animal for an hour”. Well, a bullfight does not normally last for more than 20 minutes and there are certainly no elements of torture involved, so there is your ignorance for you.
The average bull involved in a bullfight has spent 4-5 years living a free-range life. The average bull that is used solely for meat consumption is typically 1 year old. When the meat bull is slaughtered on the slaughter line, it has to wait patiently and witness its peers being slaughtered. It smells the blood and fear and hears the other bulls die. Typically the bull may be exposed to electric cattle prods to get it into position for the slaughter.
A bullfighting bull on the other hand is treated with the greatest care and respect for the duration of its life.
The number of veterinarians involved in monitoring the bulls transport and storage conditions at Las Ventas in Madrid is amazing and completely out of proportion to any other farm animal in Spain.
I cetainly do not believe that the bulls suffer in the sense that most people seem to believe.
The average bullfight lasts for approximately 20 minutes and from the start the bull is pumped up on adrenaline. This is clearly demonstrated by the physical exhaustion shown in many of the bulls towards the end of the fights. I know from personal experience that adrenaline can remove all sensations of physical pain. The goading with the lance and the jabbing with bandarillo’s in the neck muscles, causes only very limited physical sensations, as the lance will only penetrate a few centimetres and the whole neck muscle is virtually free of nerves.
Granted, a matador may be unsuccesful when administering the coup de grace, but these are the exceptions, and will almost always be followed up by a quick end to the suffering. The bull is then butchered and prepared for sale in a very efficient manner. Most people seem to accept the normal life and butchering of a meat bull without complaint, though this sort of a life is surely far less of a life than that experienced by a fighting bull.
If I was to choose the life of one or the other, I for one would have no doubts as to what my choice would be. It must also be said that a certain number of bulls are spared after a good fight and allowed to live the good life of a breeding bull.
When I go to watch a fight, people should try to understand that this is art and not some savage instinct on my part or the 25,000 people who go to watch it at las Ventas on the important days. It’s comparable to a Placido Domingo concert (who also happens to be a big bullfight fan). Although the matador has the experience, he will never have seen a particular bull before he fights it. In the last 3 weeks alone, I have witnessed at least 3 matadors been gored, so it is certainly not as one-sided as some would have it to be.
I hereby pass the baton.
Tore
Tore

Offline Tore

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 22:35 PM »
Sorry Clive,
I just realised that this absolutely does not belong under hunting (got carried away, in a surge of emotions, I suppose),
You might want to move the whole thread to a more appropriate area on the forum.
Cheers
Tore
Tore

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 22:55 PM »
Hola,

On the contrary Tore I think that you posted in the correct board...

I have these observations for you...

Quote
I cetainly do not believe that the bulls suffer in the sense that most people seem to believe.

You are not conversing with "most" people here...

Quote
When I go to watch a fight, people should try to understand that this is art and not some savage instinct on my part

To enjoy the death of an animal for enjoyments sake alone is a savage instinct (in my opinion) The majority of people who witness a bull fight generally do not partake of the meat...and if they did they would complain of the taste due to the chemicals of "fight" or "flight" that are released into the body during times of conflict

And lastly, your argument about animals bred for food is irrelevent for this subject...Intensive farming of meat is a cruel system and I for one know that...I disagree with bad farming practices in the same breath as i disagree with bull fighting...

I am no tree hugging environmentalist either but I do know the difference between respect for life and indifferent condescension...

pass the "baton"

Clive



Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 23:11 PM »
Hola,

Just so we know what we are talking about here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjaQI7Exmy4

DO NOT watch this if you are likely to get upset...

Clive
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 07:17 AM »
Hi
I do not want to see the film - seen enough over the years.
Beautifully choreographed and stylised death does not make it any less than what it is - horrendous.
Gladiatorial death in Rome was given up quite a while ago now. 
The same arguments are/were used in foxhunting cockfighting badger baiting - please feel free to add to the list
Thre rest of my arguments have been summarised by Clive so I will leave it there....
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline lisa

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 2439
    • Accommodation and Activities in the Picos de Europa
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 07:30 AM »
Oh dear, someone had to go and do it.

Of course I agree with Clive and would like to add;

When discussing the pros and cons of bullfighting, it is obviously important to know what one is talking about. Unfortunately a majority of bullfighting opponents have no real insight in to what it is all about, let alone have ever witnessed a real bullfight.

I'm sure we (and most if not all bullfighting opponents) have seen this "sport/art-form" on the tele. Personally, I've seen quite a lot in a bar we used to frequent and have made myself watch to try and view it objectively. In my opinion this is more than enough experience to be able to have an opinion on the subject. As soon as the bull enters the ring the fear and bewilderment is obvious. It doesn't matter how long the fight lasts, the fact is the supposedly more intelligent human is using another animal for the former's "sport" and gratification. 

there are certainly no elements of torture involved
How can you say that  :speechless:
The degree of pain inflicted is, I think, irrelevant. The fact is that the taunting and subsequent weakening of the animal, from the picadors onwards, enrages and frightens the bull. Whether it feels a little or a lot of pain from the bandarillas, it is still being goaded to perform and be used to create this bloody "spectacle".  That alone to me is cruel torture. Tore, do you also discount the use of the horses in your statement? There is always the possibility of them being gored (occasionally killed), as well as the "brave" matador, during their part-blindfolded experience.
By the way, Mike has been to a bullfight and wouldn't go again.

So, the animal has led a wonderful life previous to entering the gladiatorial arena. So what? Not too wonderful for it now, is it?
I wouldn't compare bullfighting to meat production. The first is supposed entertainment, with the by-the-by outcome being a dead animal that can't be wasted so is eaten. Has anybody eaten meat from a bullfight? I wonder if it's tough due to the stress or if the animal's muscles have been so thoroughly weakened that it's actually quite tender?

I find this blood sport savage and distasteful. It should have no place in a civilised society.

and will almost always be followed up by a quick end to the suffering.
Oh, that's alright then.

 
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Dave

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 1302
  • León
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 12:56 PM »
Dear Tore and All
Well it was bound to come up and all I said was 'Now, what about bullfighting'.
Just because something has never been seen, tried, or experienced in any way, does not mean that one should not have an opinion on it, Abortion, drugs (recreational not medicinal), pedophilia, the death sentence and Bullfighting to name but a few.
I find nothing to justify Bullfighting, it is so pointless especially in these enlightened times. What is to 'enjoy' about and animal being tortured before finally being put to death. To even call it a sport is to degrade the word sport. Sport signifies some kind of competition between teams or individuals, with usually a with the prospect of one or another team/person triumphing. With bullfighting there is no doubt of the outcome, OK sometimes the bull gets lucky and damages the Matador, even then he is not going to walk away to loud applause, merely slaughtered by some other means.
I too have watched the 'spectacle' on TV and yes everything is very pretty until the actual bullfight, yes it is a tradition, yes it does give people employment, and, sadly, yes it does give some people enjoyment, but there again so did public hangings in the old days.
The smell in a bullring is awful, not just from the manure but from the blood, sweat and fear of the animal involved (the Bull not the Matador).
I was born and raised on a farm, and cowsheds never smelt like that, even when you were cleaning them out, fear has a very special smell.
Sensibilty and rational should prevail – of course they should, it is easy ban bullfighting.
I for one may defend animal rights – but only certain animals heh!
but I am no radically minded emotionally overblown treehugger – thank God for those people, without them showing the way we would all be surrounded by ring roads and unwanted developments.
I certainly do not believe that the bulls suffer in the sense that most people seem to believe. - in that case in what sense do they suffer.
The goading with the lance and the jabbing with bandarillo’s in the neck muscles, causes only very limited physical sensations, as the lance will only penetrate a few centimeters and the whole neck muscle is virtually free of nerves. - As you point out yourself, if you haven't experienced it, how do you know how much pain is involved, a wasp sting is painful enough.
Granted, a matador may be unsuccessful when administering the coup de grace, but these are the exceptions – are they really exceptions, unless you have seen every bullfight ever staged, that is only an opinion.
When I go to watch a fight, people should try to understand that this is art and not some savage instinct on my part – really, and here is me thinking that art gave pleasure to both the creator and the public, artists have the choice Bulls do not. Are you absolutely sure it is not some savage instinct on your part, after all you are a hunter as well.
It’s comparable to a Placido Domingo concert (who also happens to be a big bullfight fan) – and so not all singers have good taste in their private life, remember Gary Glitter.
Regards
Dave
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 13:00 PM by Dave »

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 15:06 PM »
Greetings All,
Am sure that while I have been writing the following on my desktop - and trying to get some work done in passing, many interesting things have been added to this thread. And am equally sure that I’ll find myself ramblin’ off on the odd tangent, but here is my first aportacion (Sp. anyone?):

Although I was under the impression that there was tacit agreement on not mentioning this country’s national sport (?) (possibly in order not to upset the natives – look what happened to Capt. Cook), I see that blood has already been drawn and although I am by no means a tree-hugging softy (now that I mention it, I do seem to remember however proposing that we should all join Dave up in León and chain ourselves to his rooks’ trees, so maybe I am going soft in my o. age – don’t you believe it, Lisa  >:D) would like to contribute to preventing further blood being shed, at least here among us iberianatureforumers. I normally favour taking the bull by the horns (Sp. anyone?), and as some of you know, am not above provoking heated and/or unnecessary debate.

Taking it from the top, there are certain issues which go beyond what many otherwise reasonable human beings can cope with under normal circs. (issues such as abortion, religious education, capital punishment, and unfortunately a long etc.), and bullfighting is certainly one of those that brings out often unexpected reactions in people you know, or think you know, well.

I have always prided myself on being able to see, or at least try to see, both sides of any argument and Life is often too complicated to be able to take a clear-cut decision either way on many issues , but that is precisely where our supposed superiority over other life forms is supposed to kick in. We have an ability to apply a set of values based on collective or personal experience, culture and knowledge rather than just acting on instinct (fight or flee) and thus the maxim to which all police and military forces in civilised countries adhere to “Employ no more force than is necessary to control the situation” sets us apart from the animals (of all species) sharing our planet.

Back to the issue under review: am still, after all these years, fascinated by the fact that while many people I know here either love or abhor bull-fighting (and the no-lesser atrocious activities surrounding it – yes, am letting my true colours show through here), as in so many other issues, it is often impossible to tell just who might or might not support it – and I have been very surprised on many occasions by the opinions of people from all walks of life, and even within couples and families. Even people who oppose it strongly  have told me they would vote in favour of a referendum to maintain the status quo on this issue.

While I have never been to a live corrida, I have been invited on several occasions, and I have been talked through play-by-play slow-motion images by experts (one of whom is one of the King of Spain’s personal advisers on bullfighting) on more than one occasion (the attention to detail would be of particular interest to psychologists/psychiatrists) and there has never been a corrida (referring to famous text-book ones I have been shown) that has not had at least one incident which has been criticised - in passing - by the expert for inhumane (interesting word, that) treatment of the bull or horse (Oh, he shouldn’t have done that! That’s cruel! NO, that's not right!, etc.).

My father-in-law (salt-of-the-earth-and-especially-kind-to-animals Spaniard) loves the village variations (encierros and vaquillas, etc) and troops off at every opportunity, to the surrounding villages even, but always feels sad after seeing the cruelty and torture (I’m afraid, that’s what it boils down to). (Not directly relevant, but after having expressed my opinions and requesting him not to take my children with him one year, and he proceeding to do so behind my back, I lost my guiri cool and had showdown with him and put it in words of one syllable for him to understand – the only time in living history that this particular guiri’s words have been taken seriously).

Tore’s idea of the ethical practices and artistic values of the thing do not unfortunately stand up to scrutiny. Tore – not even cricket (passing ref. only) is what I always believed it to be, although it took me more than 30 years to realise it is just as corrupt as any other sport - bribes, doping, etc. I think you can see what I mean when we talk about your standards as applied to your idea/way of hunting on the one hand, and what is all-too-common here, on the other hand. Shaving the bulls’s horns (and other, more obscene acts of cruelty which I will not go into here on this family forum) – although prohibited only recently – is still standard practice – obviously more so at local, village level and possibly less so at national “Las Ventas” level.

For those of you who would like a brief description of the actual event:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfight

I came across an internal link there, which might also be of interest:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%ADticas_a_las_corridas_de_toros

And here is an internal link with interesting arguments against bullfighting.

Will leave off here to see what else has been posted since my last reading of the thread.

Regs.
Technopat

Ps.
I do think this issue should be left as is before it generates too much bad feeling amongst us iberianatureforumers – and that we should all campaign at our own local level (TGAL) to promote or prohibit this particular social phenomenon, according to our own principles.

Pps.
Interesting experience in the sitting room of an eminent Spanish surgeon I know – cool as cucumber under normal circs. - who was literally frothing at the mouth and his hands shaking - when his knuckles weren't white - with excitement and pleasure as we watched the images of some of the highlights of last year’s San Isidro at Las Ventas. (I spent most of the time subtly observing him out of the corner of my eye rather than watching the screen).

Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Dave

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 1302
  • León
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 15:56 PM »
Hi Technopat and all
Whether or not a tacit agreement was decided with regard to Bullfighting, I don't know, but considering the forum is less than 12 months old and the bullfighting season is starting in full swing now, it was bound to come to our notice. As always the common sense of the Forumers will prevail and no real blood will be spilt, unlike in the Bullring.
Regards
Dave

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 17:07 PM »
Greetings Dave and All,
Given that we're talking about what goes on in a ring here, I take it Queensberry rules apply? (to the thread/forum - not bullfighting).
Forgot to mention that I know an old couple who loved the thrill and colour of bullfighting and went to Las Ventas often - till they took out a subscription to what was Canal + to be able to watch it even more often, close up and in lovely colour. Not only did they not return to Las Ventas but they also stopped being aficionados. They had had no idea, having been so taken up with the general air of gaity and glamour involved. They told me they had been convinced that the bull did not suffer and that its death was in some way honourable and a prize it deserved for being so bravo, but when they saw it in detail ...

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Dave

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 1302
  • León
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 19:01 PM »
Hi Technopat
That is such a good story, and I am sure so true. last year we went to the fiestas in Pamplona, thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle of the of the young Bulls being let into the Arena with padded horns to toss the local and international borrachos about, forgot that in fact it must have been quite frightening for them (The young Bulls not the idiots), at least no one was hurt apart from a few drunks.
regards
Dave

Offline Tore

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 19:33 PM »
Hola frenzied crowds,
Goodness gracious this was an exciting topic,
For the record, I was totally unaware of any “tacit agreement”, nor did I say “what about bullfighting?” but I was unfortunately unable to hold back when I read “I'm sure we're all agreed on that one..”.
My intent was met in that I desired to spark debate and I must say that I am most content indeed with what I have reaped.
I note that this is going to be absolutely futile (like banging my head against the wall).
If one believes or even worse, is really swayed by the misrepresentation and direct falsehoods portrayed in the attached video clip, then I realise that this is going to be pointless. Even going to la corrida is not going to help you understand unless you have had it explained to you objectively (plus you need an open mind to start with!!).
I have seen the statistics too (3 different surveys) about how Spaniards feel about their “national sport”. The truth is a majority don’t care either way (and therefore hold no strong feelings if it was done away with). Of course this has been misrepresented by the no-side as a majority against.
I had my brother in-law visiting recently. He owns a farm with 270 dairy cows (and some bulls) which he cares for with the greatest respect and compassion. Our dairy cows spend most of their time outdoors.
In Norway we place a lot of emphasis on animal welfare (more than most countries, despite what Paul Watson might claim to the contrary). My brother in-law was impressed and fascinated by the bullfighting, admittedly he preferred the Vaquillas, but was adamant in that the bulls did not suffer as some repeatedly attempt to claim.
I lose no sleep at night, nor do my children who watch the fights with me. They have assisted me too many a time whilst I cleaned a seal or a reindeer, for them to become emotionally unbalanced and subjective about what they witness.
I understand that I will not manage to convert anyone, but I will counter misperceptions and misrepresentation if challenged. The important point is that I will respect your opinions, as I am sure that you will respect mine. I won’t quote Voltaire, but I can state that I did not choose to wear a uniform for the money or the prestige, naive as it may sound.
I rest my case.
Tore

Tore

Offline lucy

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 1242
    • Lucy's Blog
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2007, 21:41 PM »
Hi Tore,

I get the impression you are implying that people get upset by bullfighting because they are too removed from the reality of gore and blood that used to be part of getting food, before we started buying meat in supermarkets.  You still hunt and aren’t squeamish before the sight of blood. 

It’s true that feeding yourself that way would be ideal if it could avoid the horrors of factory farming.  I’ve always thought that there’s something hypocritical about the way people put so much energy into protesting against fox hunting, for instance, but not the unspeakable cruelty behind, say, putting veal on your plate.

But to call bull-fighting “art”? Maybe it’s a thrill and particularly exotic for the foreigner. You get to participate in an esoteric tradition. There are pretty costumes and trim buttocks to look at. But how can ritualized killing be art?

You are surprisingly sure that there’s no suffering involved. How can you be so sure? I think it would be more honest to admit that the suffering of the animal doesn’t even enter the equation.

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2007, 23:20 PM »
Hola,

Administrators hat on.... >:(

There is no subject that is banned, outlawed or unwanted here on this open forum so long as it remains within the subject of Iberian natural history and geography.

Bull fighting and it's affects have shaped this country and it's natural environment in many places therefore it is realistic to assume it also has a place in the discussions here...

If anyone is not clear on the rules please go and read them in the announcements board.

Quote
Hola frenzied crowds,
Goodness gracious this was an exciting topic,

These words I find are ambiguous and insulting, designed to create an argument where there is only polite discussion about a subject that many people feel strongly about.

Tore, nobody held a red flag to you at all..You started this thread and if you do not like it's outcome or are happy to have "frenzied" the crowds and found it "exciting" then maybe you should be posting on another forum...

Please don't make me be an administrator...

Clive



Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2007, 23:40 PM »
Greetings All,
As everyone seems most upset about not having been previously informed about the tacit agreement, I suppose I should come clean (Sp. anyone?) and confess that the tacit agreement was unilateral - referring to myself, on more than a coupla occasions, having refrained from introducing the toros motif (after having made tentative attempts). Apologies for that misunderstanding >:D .

As for being swayed by the "misrepresentation and direct falsehoods portrayed" in the video clip, such is not my case 'cos a) I can't be bothered to watch it (actually I really don't have time), and b) I know enough about the 'art' of manipulating people's ideas in other areas to know that any information can be presented in such a way as to convince anyone of anything. My inside information re. unspeakable cruelty (details of which I am making efforts to withhold) comes from experts in the field - in all cases lovers and active supporters of the fiesta - who shake their heads in disgust/dismay at the dirty deeds that are commited by the unscrupulous - who unfortunately are all too common - such is human nature? As indeed is the amazing hypocrisy we humans are capable of, as most of you have pointed out at some time or another on this thread.

As for the aesthetics of the thing, some people - even, I reckon, certain powers-that-b. of the iberianatureforum who shall be nameless, would elevate football to an art form  >:D - personally I don't see it (mind you, to be honest, I don't see much art in what is generally recognised to be art * - whereas I can gaze in awe or listen enthralled at the marvels of nature, even when they are destructive) - and every time I see people celebrating the victory of their club as if they themselves have had something to do with it I can't help but remember Maradona's Hand of God. But maybe we should repair to the Intelligent Design thread ...

* I can look at a heap of you-know-what and say "What a heap of ****!" with the same amount of enthusiasm as I would at contemplating the thing as an exhibit at an art museum (still life?), whereas Nick's famous "wolf turd" photo had me puzzled for days - even to the extend of hoping that one day, I too, might come across one just like it!

Ramblin' regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 2439
    • Accommodation and Activities in the Picos de Europa
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2007, 07:19 AM »
Dear Technopat,
I must say I was impressed by your new-found heroic concern though I reckon the response was pretty controlled compared to the hunting topic. I note that Dave's red highlighting was reserved for Tore's quotes.

Dear Clive,
I think may be your split-personality of forum member and administrator could do with a bit of distancing. (Where has that winking smilie gone?) I'm sure our innate politeness and self-control will prevail.

Dear Tore,
you will still be welcome in the Picos, my patience was stretched more yesterday by witnessing three of our guests out on quad bikes than by your provocative comments. Rest assured they've been given the cold shoulder treatment and I only toyed with the idea of giving them cold showers.

Looking forward to Dreading the "inside information" becoming available for backing-up the argument against this barbaric practice that I'm sure future generations will only know as history.
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2007, 09:01 AM »
Ah I wondered where that came from ....... Anyway I found myself quite distressed by recent writings.
However I do just want to point out that passions running high are confusing two issues:
Blood "sports"
and the killing of other creatures strictly for food. I hope Tore you adopt good practice when you kill seal or reindeer.

They are not of necessity the same things and just obfuscate.
How animals are killed in our name is an area of discussion possibly. I certainly try to be  aware of what I am eating and how it was killed and when I have been unsure I dont have it. Long correspondence in the past with Tesco and chinese sourced rabbit(passing reference only)
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 17:12 PM »
Greetings All,
While possibly not the last word on this issue, the lyrics to a song by my kids' favourite band, SKA-P, put things from a Spaniard's perspective - I'll include the link to the German website I downloaded them from and maybe you can actually listen to it there


Regs.
Technopat

Vergüenza

Entre el Atlántico y el mar Mediterráneo hay una tierra de mar y mucho sol
que desde antaño se viene practicando una asquerosa y sucia tradición:
Un individuo vestido de payaso tortura y martiriza hasta la muerte a un animal
y el graderío estalla de locura cuando el acero anuncia su final.

Banderilleros sedientos de violencia van torturando sin ninguna compasión
los picadores prosiguen la matanza acentuando punzadas de dolor
Malherido, embiste con bravura contra el frío del acero que destroza su interior
agonizando en un charco de sangre, el puntillero remata la función.

Festejo criminal, vergüenza...

Torero, eres la vergüenza de una nación
Torero, eres la violencia en televisión
Torero, eres asesino por vocación
Torero, me produce asco tu profesión

Llamar cultura al sadismo organizado, a la violencia, a la muerte o al dolor
es un insulto a la propia inteligencia, al desarrollo de nuestra evolución.
Tu indiferencia les hace poderosos, manifiesta tu repulsa a la fiesta criminal
no colabores con un juego de dementes, taurinos al código penal.

Festejo criminal, vergüenza...

Torero, eres la vergüenza de una nación
Torero, eres la violencia en televisión
Torero, eres asesino por vocación
Torero, me produce asco tu profesión

Festejo criminal, vergüenza...

from the album Planeta Eskoria (2000)
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2007, 21:13 PM »
I came across this news item in last week's Guardian as I was catching up with things
No death in the afternoon: state TV axes bullfights http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2152994,00.html

Spanish broadcaster says coverage not possible at children's viewing times

Giles Tremlett in Madrid
Tuesday August 21, 2007
The Guardian


Live bullfighting used to be a state TV staple. Photograph: Jon Nazca/Reuters
 
It was once, along with football matches featuring Real Madrid, the lifeblood of Spain's public television. In the late afternoon bars with television sets would fill up, families would settle down together in their living rooms, and the country's most famous television presenter would appear on the screen to announce the day's star attraction - the bullfight.
At times of political tension the regime of rightwing dictator General Francisco Franco reputedly programmed bullfights against protests. How many people, the logic apparently went, were going to join a march for freedom if the sex symbol matador Manuel Benítez El Cordobés was on the television?


This year, however, some 51 years after state television channel TVE made its first bullfighting broadcast, it looks set not to show a single live bullfight.
The disappearance of live bullfighting from the Spanish equivalent of the BBC has enraged traditionalists and aficionados while provoking satisfaction among a growing lobby that wants the so-called "national fiesta" banned completely.

"The absence is especially surprising given that this is a proven audience-winner," commented El Mundo newspaper.

The public broadcaster continues to show bull-fighting highlights late at night, but says restrictions on what can be shown during children's viewing times make it increasingly difficult to programme a live fight.

The disappearance of bullfighting from TVE does not, however, mean it is no longer on the country's screens. The recent proliferation of TV channels means there is probably more now than ever. Rival public broadcasters belonging to regional governments stuff their schedules with it. Critics claim TVE's defence that it is applying a voluntary, industry-wide charter on children's television viewing hides a surrender to anti-bullfight campaigners.

The code does not mention animals or bullfights but calls on broadcasters to avoid showing children both "behaviour that is dangerous to their health" and "explicitly violent scenes".

Last year's report on observance of the code upheld 31 complaints of infractions by Spanish broadcasters, though none involved bullfighting.

The parliamentary committee that watches over TVE has demanded that it warns parents when bullfights are coming up and ensures that programmes for the under-13s are scheduled on its other channel. "These [bullfights] are, surely, not the best way to be educating children," said Joan Herrera of the communist-led United Left coalition.

Traditionalists disagreed. "It is obvious that watching bullfights on the television does not traumatise children," protested Juan Manuel Albendea, of the conservative People's party.

The National Association of Bullfight Organisers has accused Luís Rodriguez Zapatero's government of using state television to perpetrate "a shameless, unjust attack on culture".

In Spain children's viewing time extends until 8pm for the under-13s. TVE has not ruled out showing live bullfights again, but a spokesman said bidding wars among Spanish broadcasters for the biggest and best festivals put these out of their price range.

It will continue to broadcast the popular bull-runs at the San Fermin fiestas in Pamplona every year. "There is no veto," a spokesman said.

In previous years, however, TVE has always shown more than a dozen live bullfights. Top matadors won the broadcaster up to 24% of viewers.

Ring masters

Manuel Benítez El Cordobés: The 1960s bullfighter was the first popular star of the TV era. The cameras immortalised his trademark "Frog's Leap" in front of the bull.

Francisco Rivera, (Paquirri): Gored to death in 1984 by a bull called Avispado at Pozoblanco, near Cordoba. Death in front of the cameras ensured an afterlife as a legend.

Jesús Janeiro, Jesulín de Ubrique: The most famous and best-looking bullfighting face of the 1990s. Women hurled their underwear at him as he saluted the crowd at the end of his fights.

"Fran" Rivera: Paquirri's bullfighting son is one of the most televisual matadors of today.

José Tomás: Came out of five years' retirement and was very nearly gored to death at Malaga over the weekend.

Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2007, 19:06 PM »
Hi all,

The Olive press have published an article about Recortes... Bull gymnastics?
The comment at the bottom written by Pedro Santamaria is well written but wrong in many points.....
http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/11/13/the-other-bullfighting



But when I was at school in the LOG I remember in gymnastic we had this thing called a horse that we had to hurl ourselves at and do flips.... Maybe it has a long history and was really a bull?

Clive
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey