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Bullfighting

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Offline lisa

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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2008, 15:38 PM »
I've put this on our main page.


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Offline tonyninfas

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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2008, 19:31 PM »
Well Lisa
That's my signature added.  :clapping:
Tony

Offline lisa

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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 18:39 PM »
Here's another anti-bullfighting association, AVAT, Asociación de Veterinarios Abolicionistas de la Tauromaquia or Vet's Against Bullfighting. Sign to support them! I've had trouble but will try again tomorrow  :)

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Offline Jesus Contreras

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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 22:40 PM »
- HERIDO ESTÁ DE MUERTE, EL PUEBLO QUE CON SANGRE SE DIVIERTE -

- TOUCHED IS TO DEATH THE COUNTRY THAT WITH BLOOD ENJOY ITSELF - (please anyone correct it to english, please).

The problem is not an animal death, the problem is the national shame of enjoying with death and blood.

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Offline potes

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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2008, 10:40 AM »
Absolutely, and may i add
 
 A child makes his first essays of cruelty upon the weakest and most defenceless parts of the animal creation: from thence he proceeds, as his strength and powers of cruelty increase, to attack the stronger and more formidable: last of all, after having been thus trained in a regular exercise of savageness, he falls upon his own species. When the Boy has been accustomed to contemplate with pleasure the cries and writhings of tortured animals, what better can be expected of the Man, than that he should feel an enjoyment in the sufferings of human beings? Cruelty, like all other vices, is progressive and ingenious; it calls continually for stronger gratifications, and is driven upon refined methods of satisfying its cravings.

Thomas Young

regards
 

Offline Dave

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« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2008, 10:54 AM »
Well quoted
I agree completely with everything that has been said here
regards
Dave

Offline peanut

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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 19:28 PM »
|m slightly off the subject here but on Saturday we saw "un exhibicion de Recortes y Toreo Tradicional" This was in Madrigal de la Vera as part of its fiesta. It was held in a bullring put up for the evening and involved 9 youngish lads performing acrobatics and calming 3 vacas and one novillo-toro. I wondered how the animals were going to be let out as the entrance for them was very small. Of course they wernt but were killed. However this was done by a slaughterman who stunned them as soon as they were tired and then cut the spinal column. I felt that (on this occasion) the animals were treated kindly. I have experienced English slaughterhouses with my sheep in the past and if anything the latter seemed to traumatize the animals more.
One question- I cannot find atranslation for Recortador
Bye for now, Peanut

Offline judith

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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2008, 21:31 PM »
Missed this one!
As usual I am slightly at odds with Peanuts opinions!
I thought we were going to see some people exhibit the rudiments of bull-fighting, i.e. the ballet, culture and logistics (!) behind it. My initial feeling was/is complete revulsion, however I don't feel I have the right to reject a part of the culture, in a country where I have chosen to live, without at least attempting to understand it.
I must admit, the acrobatics that the young lads were doing over and past a very much horned bull impressed me. They must have needed an awful lot of courage to do what they did "for kicks". However, I was as innocent of the bull's fate as Peanut was, for some reason we both expected the bull to be released after it's performance.
I also don't know what a recortador is unless the palabra refers to the fly past that the young lads make!
I'm still not sure how I feel about the whole performance, I know I came home with a headache from hell, but that might have been the heat!
 I think in order to be for or against something one must look at both sides as impassionately as possible in order to make an objective, informed decision.....however, I will not be going to see a proper bullfight!

Offline lisa

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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2008, 08:38 AM »
The only translation I can find in English for "recortador" is "bull-leaper". As unsatisfactory as is the activity in my eyes. Here are the definitions of "recortar" from the Real Academia Española;

"recortar.



1. tr. Cortar o cercenar lo que sobra de algo.

2. tr. Cortar con arte el papel u otra cosa en varias figuras.

3. tr. Disminuir o hacer más pequeño algo material o inmaterial.

4. tr. Pint. Señalar los perfiles de una figura.

5. tr. Méx. Hablar mal de alguien.

6. prnl. Dicho de una cosa: Dibujarse su perfil sobre otra. Las montañas se recortan en el firmamento.

7. prnl. P. Rico. Cortarse el pelo."


Translated into English, to trim, cut short or to crop (but without the nuances that are apparent in the Spanish).

Of course, "bull-leaper" sounds ridiculous because no English word exists to describe this purely Hispanic activity. Personally I would translate it as "a young male member of a supposedly developed society with an overload of testosterone who, through insensitivity, can find no other ways of exerting his excess energies and proving his manhood than by mistreating another living being". 

About as dispassionate as I can be on this subject.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 09:27 AM by lisa »
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Offline glennie

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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2008, 15:40 PM »
I know it's a bit off the subject... but

Just as many of us cannot understand how so many Spaniards can tolerate the cruelty of bullfighting, Spaniards cannot understand how, for example, Brits can so blithely not allow the sick to be accompanied 24 hours a day in hospital by their loved ones or often pay so little attention to the needs of their elderly parents. They find it incomprehensible. We are often a mystery to each other.

And, to wander even further, I sometimes wonder if some positive aspects of certain cultures could not exist without the negative. For example, the Spanish don't go in for irony that much. Meanwhile, Brits find that irony very funny at times; the spice of life; essential for getting by. Indeed, I think that irony and the humour it produces is a gift to the world. But does irony not require a certain distance from what is being ironised? And is that distance unconnected to the distance Brits often put between thelselves and others? That relative coldness between people which is relatively absent in Spain and which I seem to feel when I go home?

Just conjecturing... and waiting to be shot down (...and wandering ... sorry).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 15:44 PM by glennie »

Offline peanut

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« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2008, 18:51 PM »
We spent a lot of this weekend in the company of a family of locals and their friends. One is training to be a vet and is not keen on watching Bullfighting but accepts it as part of Spanish culture. We had a long chat about the attitude of foreigners to Bullfighting and also to Pero Palo (our yearly carnival) Their feeling is that:
1- English people generally do not understand the culture behind these events
2-Most visitors make no effort to talk to the locals to gain an understanding of these things
3- Most foreigners who visit or move to the area make no effort to speak Spanish
We have repeatedly been told that we are unusual because of our friendliness and acceptance of the local culture. So I do not feel it is my place to criticise aspects of a culture of which I have only been a part for a short time.
Finally, the "Recortadores" event raised a large amount of money for a very poor community. I fully agree with Glennies observations
Cheers,  Peanut

Offline Clive

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« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2008, 23:12 PM »
Cultural arguments for, or against are not acceptable with me I am afraid as there is nowhere to draw a line of acceptability..... (for three thousand years we have been hanging our third born daughters from that oak tree... This is what we do and it is our way... It is our culture and you should not interfere as you are just a visitor to our country.......)

Stabbing, goring and torturing an animal, any animal, until it is bled. Weakening it to the point of liquid excrement and then praising what a beautiful death it was given is one of the most sickening acts that has been described as "art"

The human race has a lot to offer and is full of infinite potential but that future will not be seen until people understand that killing for this kind of pleasure is wrong.

There is no place for the human race in the future of this world or any other until this incredible species, our species, learns to protect and guard rather than dominate and destroy...

The attitude that promotes bull fighting (and its social repercussions) is a root evil of the rot that is destroying everything positive that the human race could accomplish.... Look beyond bull fighting and try to see the big picture but look at bull fighting and see the signs.....

Stand up and say it is wrong and should not continue... maybe if this dominance and aggressive attitude could be removed we would all live in a world of peace... Maybe
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2008, 01:13 AM »
Greetings Glennie, Clive and All,
Sorry, folks, but this is gonna be one of me longer efforts!  >:D

First of all, for Jesús' "Herido está..." (Machado?), I get something along the lines of:
Fatally wounded themselves
are a people that, with the sight of blood, revels


or possibly

Bleeding to death themselves
are a people that, with the sight of blood, revels


A bit forced perhaps, but this is more up Dave's street...as iberianatureforum's resident poet parsley :technodevil:

Well put, Clive! About as conclusive an argument against the "culture" crap that gets spouted out every time anyone objects to this barbarity. I know many Spaniards who personally dislike bullfighting but who defend the so-called cultural aspects of it.

The other argument, the one people usually bring up about fox-hunting, is easily quashed by pure mindless statistics: in the 20-odd years I lived in the UK, mixing freely with both the nobs and the yobs, I only ever met one person (mother of an acquaintance) who belonged to a hunt - or at least mentioned it in public. In the time I've spent over here in Spain, I have been given extremely detailed lectures by persons well versed in this "art" form (on two occasions over two consecutive years the person I was with received a phone call from Juan Carlos asking him for his opinion as to which bullfights he recommended attending over the next week or so and whether he would be so kind as to accompany him) and by members of my family-in-law who are socially and culturally at the extreme pole.

I tend to not enter into this one 'cos it makes me see red and I tend to go over the top, and in print my words might get misinterpreted. So, maybe we can leave this 'til the next campside fire where, with the flowing wine and general catharsis of such bucolic moments, one can say things which normally...

Glennie, not like you to go off-topic at all :dancing: , but as wandering/rambling does one the world of good and - Oh Great & Wise Powers-that-B. notwithstanding - something that should be encouraged. Problem in many/most cases is the generalisation - this very weekend I've been very critical of a Spanish friend of mine who's just gone off on his hols. - claiming that he really needs 'em - while his father is literally at death's door.

Meanwhile, Manual Orta, a reputable flamenco singer - for those of you who like that kind of thing - has a song called something like "El Heredero" which is a grandfather singing to his grandson about how he has been abandoned by his own son, etc. etc. The whole plaza, mainly made up of the old-timers, in the village last night was in tears on listening to a playback version of it and the general comments were along the lines of "Es una verdad como un templo..." (En. anyone?).

I'm-a-wanderin'-man regs.,
Technopat

PS.
Lisa's DRAE doesn't mention the other meaning of recortar (though I may be getting my verbs mixed up her, Jesús? but it's not a lexical area that I dominate) which refers to the standard practice of shaving the tips of the bull's horns so that it's agony for him to touch anyone with it and he quickly learns not to...

P*S.
When the Technopatlets came to me a couple of years back and asked me to explain to them, after having discussed it amongst themselves, why their abuelo - the person they most love and admire (after Mrs Tp and yours truly  :dancing: ) - loved the encierros and the whole paraphernalia so much* I explained to them that he was merely the victim of his times, society and generation, i.e. he hasn't ironed a shirt or washed the dishes in his life, is deeply respectful of authority and the traditions, deeply anti-Catalans and foreigners (though he has mellowed on that one: his two most-beloved daughters married non-Spaniards and one of them now lives in Barcelona and the penny has finally dropped  >:D ) and, while otherwise a genuinely nice person, was incapable of questioning certain things he had been brought up with, including... nay time to call it a day. Technopatlets now pity their grandfather rather than criticise him and have the courage to tell him that they don't want to go with him 'cos they disagree with the whole business. One of my better efforts.

*this very afternoon, there he was, sitting a metre away from the widescreen plasma TV on the edge of his armchair with his tongue literally hanging out of the side of his mouth in anticipation of the final kill...
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2008, 01:18 AM »
Sorry!
Never could get me Spanish verbs right... :banghead:

Quote
REAL  ACADEMIA  ESPAÑOLA - DICCIONARIO DE LA LENGUA ESPAÑOLA - Vigésima segunda edición
(Del arag. o leon. afeitar, y este del lat. affect?re, arreglar).

Afeitar
1. tr. Raer con navaja, cuchilla o máquina la barba o el bigote, y, por ext., el pelo de cualquier parte del cuerpo. U. t. c. prnl.

2. tr. Esquilar a una caballería las crines y las puntas de la cola.

3. tr. Recortar e igualar las ramas y hojas de una planta de jardín.

5. tr. Taurom. Cortar o limar la punta de los cuernos al toro para que su lidia resulte menos peligrosa.
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2008, 08:32 AM »
Tp, are you referring to that same Juan Carlos, fine, upstanding pillar of society, who leads by example and shoots bears?
Bullfighting will die its own, slow death, at the hands of the Spanish people themselves.
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Offline peanut

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« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2008, 09:57 AM »
Dear all
Iagree that the "cultural crap" (swop for my celestial body?) arguement is well used, as are the same old (but not  always crap) anti- hunting arguements. Perhaps because they have a grain of truth to them. I think that a peaceful world is best acheived through understanding and allowing differences (religious,cultural etc) because otherwise there is a natural tendency towards infighting and destruction. The trouble (As you know Clive and all) with this type of discussion is that its a bit like arguing religion or politics- most people will not change their opinion.
See you round the campfire, Peanut

Offline lucy

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« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2008, 11:06 AM »
Well-said Clive. 

Apart from the culture aspect, another frequent defence is the suggestion that opposing cruelty to animals somehow reflects an indifference to humans.

I agree with TP about generalisations.  Perhaps it’s true that there’s a greater expectation in Spain that children should look after elderly parents.  About coldness: in the UK there are certain areas (shan’t name them) where people come over as more reserved, and others where they immediately strike you as friendly.  In Spain it’s the same.

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2008, 12:31 PM »
Greetings Lisa and All,
That's the one - JC rules OK!  :technodevil: He loves 'em, but the missus hates the whole sordid affair...

Re. Lisa's
Quote
Bullfighting will die its own, slow death,
, I was firmly convinced of that in the early 80s when urban Spain underwent a major sociocultural revolution, but maybe the heat is just making me despondent again...

Re. Peanut's
Quote
a bit like arguing religion or politics- most people will not change their opinion.
sums it up perfectly.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, most hunters I know claim to be nature-lovers and that if it were not for them and their lobby, the whole country would be one lump of concrete, etc. etc., likewise with some/many lovers of the corridas - I've even been told that 'cos the bulls need free-range dehesas, they are doing humanity a favour by protecting the environment...

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline glennie

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« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2008, 18:11 PM »
@ TP and Lucy

I fully take your point about generalisations and am always at pains to include adverbs like 'often' or 'frequently' or the verb 'tend'. I think I may have omitted one or two of those.
I simply think that there is a tendency (more or less marked depending on the issue) for certain things to be more or less acceptable/'normal' in given cultures. I don't think that to say that is controversial or politically incorrect.

An example .... Last year, I taught a class which included Spaniards and Germans. The Germans were almost never late arriving to class; the Spaniards were frequently late. I find it very hard to remember an occasion on which a German student tried to use a mobile phone while in class; I can recall numerous occasions on which the Spaniards did so. I think that says something about how important young Germans tend to think punctuality is and what they tend to regard as unacceptable behaviour in a classroom. But I would not want to say anything more categorical than that.


@ Everyone
The question: 'Is bullfighting art?' has always seemed irrelevant - if it is cruel (and how can't it be?), it is unacceptable ... end of story.

I think the problem for many Spaniards is that, in their heart of hearts, they know there can be no ethical defence of bullfighting, but they just enjoy it so much that they grab at any kind of specious argument to defend the status quo. It's all about finding ways of not giving up what you enjoy when you know you should. How many people do you know who spend 5 minutes every day adding to the list of reasons not to sell that gas-guzzling four-wheel-drive? As a species, we find it hard to grow up, or rather, we tend to :biggrin:.


« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 18:16 PM by glennie »

Offline Dave

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« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2008, 19:34 PM »
Hi Glennie
I guess that goes for lots of things such as
Smoking
Drinking
the list goes on.
Regards
Dave