Iberianature Forum

Pure English at the iberianatureforum

  • 26 Replies
  • 14441 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Simon

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 09:56 AM »
Thanks for that Teeps. I really HATE that word useage and it's good to hear that our sensible teens have dropped it!

Simes

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 20:11 PM »
Greetings All,
For some reason Technopat is feeling especially politically correct today, so he’s decided to ease into this one with tact.
There’s a curious phenomenon here in Spain whereby several generations of Spaniards were specifically taught at school that when writing in capitals it’s not necessary to put the tilde over the vowel which is stressed. Ask any well-educated Spaniard you know and chances are that s/he’ll tell you that that is so. In other words, they think it correct to write EL PAIS or OLIMPICO or AFRICA, etc. (iberianatureforumers however, all know that that it should be EL PAÍS, OLÍMPICO and ÁFRICA). The Royal Spanish Academy (de la Lengua), in its Ortografía de la Lengua Española categorically states that it has never in all its history given instructions to the contrary.

What I’m getting at in my usual convoluted tactful way is that several generations of English speakers have also been victims of the ignorance of some/many teachers similarly mis-taught with the no-prep-at-the-end rule. We all know the famous Churchill anecdote:
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

But I thought I’d give you some practical examples – most of which I’ve lifted from the excellent Swan’s Practical English Usage (Oxford University Press):
What are you thinking about?
She’s not very easy to talk to.
I hate being shouted at.
That’s just what I was looking for.
It’s a nice place to live in.
His bed hasn’t been slept in.
Their house isn’t easy to get to.

In many cases it’s a matter of choosing between an informal style and a more formal style, but in some cases it is not possible (i.e. it is NOT correct) to put the prep. at the end:
Where shall I send it?
What does she look like?
What did you buy that for?
In my family, money was never spoken about.
It’s worth looking into.

Then of course, we have cases of certain words, such as off, up, down, etc. which can function as both prepositions and adverb particles:
She ran up the stairs. vs She rang me up.

But that’s for another rainy day...

And I know a great one about the actress and the bishop, but as this is a family forum, will keep it till the next Summit campside fire get-together when all the nippers have gone to bed... :angel:

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 22:24 PM »
Hello Technopat,

What are you doing this for? Haven't you got a home to go to? What a mess you've gotten us into!


Regarding your, "In many cases it's a matter of choosing between an informal style and a more formal style, but in some cases it is not possible (i.e. it is NOT correct) to put the prep. at the end:
Where shall I send it?"
Don't you mean that there are cases where it is not possible to put the prep. anywhere else but at the end of the sentence, as in your examples?

My Oxford chappie, one E.S.C. Weiner (Oxford Guide to the E.L. 1983, p168), says that the "alleged rule"  is all stuff and nonesense and that one should use what sounds natural!

Meanwhile, my take on the Churchill quote follows version the Gower's quote. But I think the big difference here is in the context in which it was allegedly said/written. I always though it was a retort in the House of Commons!

Well it is a rainy day after all! 8)

Regs

Simon

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 22:49 PM »
Greetings Simon,
Knew you wouldn't be able to resist this one!  :technodevil:
Love yer great examples:
Quote
What are you doing this for? Haven't you got a home to go to? What a mess you've gotten us into!

As you rightly pointed out, made a goof with
Quote
"In many cases it's a matter of choosing between an informal style and a more formal style, but in some cases it is not possible (i.e. it is NOT correct) to put the prep. at the end:
Where shall I send it?" Don't you mean that there are cases where it is not possible to put the prep. anywhere else but at the end of the sentence, as in your examples?
- thanx for pointing out it!

Regs.,
Technopat

Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2008, 23:09 PM »
I'm at your service My Liege,

And onto another thing; what do you thngk of Nicks adoption of 'to impact' eh? He's been infected with it from the BBC program about Benidorm, "Stacking thousands of guests in such a small area limits the size of place they're impacting."

I thnk the only time 'impact' can become a verb is to do with something unspeakable happening 'down there' that only a hefty dose of  Castor Oil would solve. But let's not dwell on that nighmare scenario!

Simes

PS. Just for once the dictionaries seem to agree with me!

Offline Technopat

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 3020
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2008, 00:08 AM »
Greetings Simon,
One of the many sterling qualities I have reasons for which I have survived long enough to become a Full 'Shroomey here at iberianatureforum is that before having a go at one of our Oh Great and Wise Etceteras I tend to check and double-check my Usually Reliable Sources.  8)

So it is with some regret that I have to be the wet blanket at this lovefest, and much as it goes against the grain to disagree with a fellow or fellowess iberianatureforumer, I find your lack of faith in both the BBC’s and our Oh Great and Wise Etc.'s high standards shocking, nay, even appalling, and, and... words fail me...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impact

Quote
Main Entry:
Pronunciation:
    \im-?pakt\
Function:
    verb
Etymology:
    Latin impactus, past participle of impingere to push against — more at impinge
Date:
    1601

transitive verb
1 a: to fix firmly by or as if by packing or wedging b: to press together
2 a: to have a direct effect or impact on : impinge on b: to strike forcefully; also : to cause to strike forcefully
intransitive verb
1: to have an impact —often used with on
2: to impinge or make contact especially forcefully

— im·pact·ful - adjective
— im·pac·tive - adjective
— im·pac·tor also im·pact·er -  noun

Anticipating objections to the tune of "Yeah, but it's a Yankee dictionary", I was of course going to check out Oxford, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that if its first recorded use is 1601, there's not much point, is there?
 
The fact that you don’t like it, and the fact that I don’t like, don’t/doesn’t enter into it, I’m afraid. That "impactful" above is particularly hard to stomach...

Regs.,
Technopat

PS.
We'll leave program for another rainy day, shall we? :angel:
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2008, 08:52 AM »
Well it's still raining so here goes:

From the Oxford American Dictionary that comes with my Mac I have this:

"iverb |?m?pakt| 1 [ intrans. ] come into forcible contact with another object : the shell impacted twenty yards away. • [ trans. ] come into forcible contact with : an asteroid impacted the earth some 60 million years ago. • have a strong effect : high interest rates have impacted on retail spending | [ trans. ] the move is not expected to impact the company's employees.

2 [ trans. ] press firmly : the animals' feet do not impact and damage the soil as cows' hooves do.

ORIGIN early 17th cent.(as a verb in the sense [press closely, fix firmly] ): from Latin impact- ‘driven in,’ from the verb impingere (see impinge ).USAGE The phrasal verb impact on, as in: when produce is lost, it always impacts on the bottom line, has been in the language since the 1960s. Many people disapprove of it despite its relative frequency, saying that make an impact on or other equivalent wordings should be used instead. This may be partly because, in general, new formations of verbs from nouns (as in the case of impact) are regarded as somehow inferior. As a verb, impact remains rather vague and rarely carries the noun’s original sense of forceful collision. Careful writers are advised to use more exact verbs that will leave their readers in no doubt about the intended meaning. In addition, since the use of impact is associated with business and commercial writing, it has a peripheral status of ‘jargon,’ which makes it doubly disliked."


My well thumbed Oxford Concise goes further, however, spcifically referring to a thirt trasitive use in the adjective form 'impacted': "(of faeces) lodged in in the intestine" Yeugh!

I rrest my case  >:D

Looking forward to your reposte, mi Señor!

Simon
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 09:00 AM by Simon »