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Why sign the petition against more golf courses

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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2007, 20:49 PM »
Greetings All,
In the meantime, the following tidbit/titbit may be of interest to those of us who still have faith in the course of justice (and, dare I add, just causes):
http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/09/17/court-suspends-murcia-golf-course-project/

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2007, 02:34 AM »
Greetings All and especially Jill and Simon,
Finally starting to make headway in my backlog of work (summer holidays! Who needs 'em!) and can now afford to devote time to iberianatureforum backlog.

I made a tongue-in-cheek request elsewhere the other night for y’all to recommend me a thread that I could sink me teeth into and lo and behold! (or whatever the Darwinian equivalent would be – seek and ye shall find?), bumped into this one which is more than enough for me to have a bash at. Unless, of course, the powers-that-b. choose to brick up this particular thread in a misguided attempt to paint a rosy and harmonious virtual reality at the iberianatureforum.

So having got over my initial suspicion of a conspiracy plot hatched by you lot while I was resting, and chagrin at having been left out of iberianatureforum’s humdinger of a ruckus over gold courses, urban myths, freedom of speech and just about every other issue of human interest all rolled into one – the stuff soap operas (Sp. anyone?) are made of, have just discovered yet another advantage of heated debate over the internet: yours truly can enter the fray way after everyone’s gone home and deal cooly and calmly 8) with those issues which would normally make one’s blood boil in the heat of the moment.

And I find that with the advantage of being able to read all of the above exchanges in a detached light I am in almost total agreement with each and every one of the points raised (even many of the ones Juan made - but skipped over the skipper's ones, preferring to keep him out of it as he already has enough to deal with having a mutinous crew on board) along the way.

Obviously I'll be going over ground already trodden on by your exchanges, but at least in this first instalment, will try to stick to the remit of this thread - Why sign the petition against more golf courses. Going back to the roots of Jill’s initial and very valid comments, some of which, such as the status of foreigners in Spain, and how to expound on mindless (or mind-numbing?) stats. to well-meaning persons, had also been broached on other threads by Simon, SueMac and others, one of the things we need to do - if it has not already been done - is present figures in easy-to-grasp terms.

Before going onto that crucial point, dealing briefly and in passing with the status of f. in Spain, and making humungous efforts not to enter into the always tricky areas of notions of territoriality, nationality, etc., however long I live here, however much I try to adapt or succeed in adapting myself to my chosen whatever, I myself will always be considered, and will always consider myself, a foreigner here. From a purely selfish viewpoint, never mind society and humanity at large, simply wishing the future well-being of the three people I most care for in this world (apart from myself), it turns out that they are Spanish by birth and by one of those quirks of Nature, I am actually, momentarily at least, responsible for their well-being, upbringing (for two of 'em) and financial stability. (Hope that doesn't sound too whatever it may sound, but it's very late and you know what I mean.) So surely I must be permitted, even by diehard Spanish patriots, to at least express my views on matters which might affect those same loved-ones' futures - even if I can't vote as to the kind of education or health services they might receive. But I digress.

On to the mindless stats. We are so used to politicians bandying numbers around and manipulating them to suit their needs (bottle half full?), that many of us just turn a deaf ear (Sp. anyone?) to them. Likewise, analysing their speech, one of the gajes del oficio (En. anyone?) of politicians and public figures being their need to spin things one way or t’other, i.e. playing it up or down according to their current needs, one often finds them accusing others of doing and saying exactly what they themselves have previously said and done and being totally unaware of the Freudian slips they make in the process.

On the other hand, pressure groups tend to go over the top and their excessive use of headline-grabbing stats. only generates disbelief in those who would otherwise be genuinely concerned by the issues being dealt with. As always, and Simon rightly points it out, the truth is often somewhere in between.

So, when looking for meaningful stats. to use, I thought it useful to go straight to the horse’s mouth (Sp. anyone?) and let the pro-golf lobby speak for itself, and use their own mindless stats. to discredit their claims in justifying the ecology of gold courses. The fact that they actually officially address the issue does of course show their concern. I hasten to add that, I have nothing against golf per se, and have in a previous life (passing ref. only) enjoyed many a round (of golf – just in case you were thinking of punning) but the more I look into the issue from a purely ecological viewpoint, the more the whole thing dismays me, to say the least. Especially when we're dealing with gold courses projected under the circumstances we all know about...

http://www.randa.org/
R and A (geddit?) is the world golfing authority and addresses the issue and their concerns extensively on their web site. And they refer to best practices in designing new golf courses. (As for existing ones, came across a humdinger in there somewhere, but have since been unable to find it, in which they mention the inconvenience of letting nature run riot and woodlands overgrowing onto the fairways through careless management.)

At the following web site, a link from the R&A,
https://www.bestcourseforgolf.org/images/water.pdf one of the best practices refers to this one which might be similar to an Andalusian gold course:
Quote
The Barwon Heads Golf Club, Victoria, Australia

The average rainfall for this heavily populated area of Australia is 600 mm
per year and restrictions on mains drinking water are common in summer,
when temperatures can reach the high 30s Centigrade. Water is available
from underground aquifers but, given the proximity of the course to the
sea, this water is very saline and cannot be used for irrigation
. During
severe restrictions artificial watering is only permitted on the greens, and in
particularly dry periods only hand-held hoses may be used.

The cost
The greens, environmentally sensitive areas of the course and areas close to
housing are watered using higher quality water
, but the tees, fairways and
approaches are watered using the recycled waste water. Using waste water in
this way has two main environmental benefits: it reduces the demand for
high quality drinking water and also reduces the amount of wastewater
being discharged into the ocean. There are also substantial cost savings:
recycled water costs £91 per 1,000 m3 compared to £343 per 1,000 m3 for
drinking standard water. The club uses about 40,000 m3 of recycled water
per year, a cost saving of £10,100 compared to using high quality potable
water.

The club has recently improved its environmental credentials further by
establishing a storm water harvesting scheme, which collects rainwater
from a nearby housing development and which is expected to yield 30,000
m3 of water per annum (46% of annual water requirements
).

As most of us have readily admitted, the absolute figures mean nowt (can't remember that expression Nick used once) - at least to me, so I just underlined the ideas that seemed mind-boggling in themselves - presented  in the context of best practices, don't forget, and they do seem unjustifiable from just about evry viewpoint - we won't even enter into non-iberianatureforum macro-issues such as the millions dying of thirst, etc. in other lands.

Ramblin' again - didn't mean to, but can't sign off/log out or turn in without adding, although it's none of my business - but maybe it's the lateness of the hour (not mine - Bill Withers) - that I don't feel Simon's words (which I wish I had thought of myself and fully subscribe to), were meant as an attack on you at all, Jill. As I say, I agree more or less totally with what he said, would have said more or less the same - not quite so eloquently - and would be most upset if any of you had taken them as a personal attack.

Whatever the Darwinian eqivalent of a miracle is, as in "if Lisa and I can get to see eye to eye, on certain issues at least" (or is that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a t.?), I’m sure that Simon can get out of the corner Jill seems to have painted him into i.e. he certainly doesn’t need me to help him out – if anything I’m liable to get him even deeper into it - but again, from a purely selfish viewpoint, I would like this thread to continue open with as many contributions as poss. from you both (esp. as I agree with you both :dancing: and don't want this misunderstanding to stand between what has the potential to be meaningful debate), from all of you and from all newcomers.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2007, 09:16 AM »
Hi all
As I am still knackered and one handed, I cannot compete with TP's refreshed mind and body but just a couple of things I want to say briefly.
1. On water in Aussie. Tremendous ignorance and lack of will to change their lifestyles and gardening habits despite restrictions.  Trying to keep grass green like back "at home" is a particularly "British" characteristic.....
2. This thing about who has a right to say what............          A general point -

 In Australia - (sorry folks but these ex -colonial countries are very useful examples) - the white polulation of  three hundred years or so dont consider the indigenous population have much of a right to speak out  - they are foreigners in their own land.  Same in the United States of America. Reverse situation in UK ie incomers  rights.

I think there are exact parallels in Spain  as  an ex colonialist power. Exaggerrated probably by religion in all cases. Ooops how did that slip in?
3. In economic terms non Spanish incomers have helped enormously to bring prosperity to many areas pretty quickly. Like forty years!!!!!  I would say the indigenous population  are pretty pleased with the amount of money we (Steve and me and his Mum, have spent in the last two years but there is a potential row breing here between us and the hunters  who come over  the land around us which I will come back to under a new subject title.
4. So people taking positions is a very complex business.  I think there are moral imperatives that are global and to do nothing is equally wrong. Working it out is also tough but you cant please all the people all the time or something like that...........
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2007, 12:03 PM »
Greetings SueMac,
Thanx for that.
And apologies to all for the topspin above - got carried away. Not British, but justified by living abroad for so long ...

Everything quite clear except your ref. to one-handedness - have I missed out on something else other than the tremendous bronca on this thread?
Your point 4,
Quote
So people taking positions is a very complex business.  I think there are moral imperatives that are global and to do nothing is equally wrong. Working it out is also tough but you cant please all the people all the time or something like that...........
sums it all up nicely.

Maybe in our introductory blurb (thinking ahead to future iberianatureforum action here also) we could incorporate SueMac's comments in order to "justify" the fact that a bunch of guiris have the cheek/crust/galls (whoops!) to tell others what is or isn't right and thereby help other well-meaning folks take decisions.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2007, 12:38 PM »
Greetings All,
Would it be over-the-top :technodevil: to use the following, or something similar but less fantastic, to "justify" foreigners taking an interest in Spain's and Spaniards' well-being:

Scenario: Happily walking home down dark side streets of central Madrid, enjoying traffic-less madrugada tranquility. Turn corner, see someone being held up at knifepoint right in front of us on other side of narrow road.

What should I do?
A) Keep on walkin' - it's none of my business (after all, I'm only a foreigner here).
B) Do my best, limited to my personal ability, to help resolve unpleasant situation for at least one of the parties involved.
C) Wait till scene has been acted out to its natural end and then console victim.
D) None of the above.

Don't really want to single Juan out, 'cos he actually sounds perfectly reasonable, but is only a victim of cultural background, etc. But my faith in human n. is such that I'm pretty sure Juan would do what I would do under those circs. Twiddling my thumbs is not the most satisfactory option, unless circs. are conditioned in some way (instead of knife, read submachine gun).

I'm sure one of youse guys (and gals) out there can come up with something more effective and user-friendly if you turn your mind to it.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2007, 15:30 PM »
ha! my little way to find out who is not looking at the diary!
MS and very primitive compost toilets in the Pyrenees are not conducive to each other. So fell down hill in middle of night and broke a little bone in my hand and  now bearing some interesting scars, bruises and a temporary splint.
SueMac
. ps any of you who have a cultural bone and live in Barcelona I found out this morning some of my photos are up at Galeriazero in Canvis nous 5, Barcelona this week. private show tomorrow evening and will send invitation if interested
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2007, 19:01 PM »
Greetings SueMac,
So totting up the total to date, you have this weird need to go traipsing around forests in middle of night, MS,
Quote
some interesting scars, bruises and a temporary splint
, consecutive shows on in London and Barcelona, a shotgun wedding party with local hunters looming, numerous postings at iberianatureforum, a blog AND a diary. And you expect me to keep up ...

Regs.
Technopat

PS.
'Ow's 'Orace?
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2007, 20:41 PM »
Uh - you missed the post when I said I was behind you...
Come from a long line of long lived females - what else do you expect me to do in the next thirty years? One of the advantages of getting older is that I am finally released from the cultural armlock that said I was a inferior marriedmotherwifewomancooketc etcetc
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline SueMac

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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2007, 13:16 PM »
Hi TP
Funny you should ask about 'Orace.  First natterjack (my brain and fingers wanted to say knackerjack there) has turned up in the pool this morning for a quick swim.  There has been a lot of activity around here naturewise in the last few days..  A host of swallows dropped by for a drink from the pool yesterday. Last night there was a heck of a row outside our front door  from little owls I guess.  There are some extremely interesting spiders at the bottom of the pool - big? black? hairy? Wasps are 'pigging' out (mental image makes me want to draw a cartoon) on our black figs.
Best SueMac
ps How was Mojacar?
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline lisa

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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 11:01 AM »
Hi All, just thought it would be interesting to point out here that there is a groundswell of public opinion in Spain against the appropriation of land in order to build these complexes and that it is not just confined to the stance taken by the likes of Greenpeace and WWF/Adena (aswell as Iberianature forummers.)
Here's a link to a thread protesting against golf course construction on Foro Agroterra that I came across today. Might be worth contacting the last post's author, Technopat? Simon?
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Clive

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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2007, 20:56 PM »
Jasper Morrissey , United Kingdom
end the greed ,end the selfishness,end the ignorance: end the golfcourses!!..

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/no-more-golf-courses-in-spain
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline Jill

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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2007, 19:58 PM »
Now you've got me wondering whether ALL of the signatures are from people who are forum-related...!
Couldn't we publicise this petition a bit better... somehow... somewhere... ?

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2007, 17:26 PM »
Greetings All,
Totally agree with Lisa's
Quote
there is a groundswell of public opinion in Spain against the appropriation of land in order to build these complexes and that it is not just confined to the stance taken by the likes of Greenpeace and WWF/Adena (aswell as Iberianature forummers.)
and had a butcher's at your forum link with a view to sounding 'em out but the last posting is from mid-2005, so probably a dead end. But I'm sure there must be other fora/forums out there, both UK-and Spain-based. (groundswell = undercurrent, Jill?),

and with Jill's
Quote
Couldn't we publicise this petition a bit better... somehow... somewhere... ?

As a newcomer to the world of lobbying/petitions etc. am eager to learn of other people's experiences and suggestions, but I agree with a comment I think both SueMac and Jill made about how to better sell it, i.e. presenting it as a link on/from other forums/fora.

Regs.,
Technopat

PS.
Had enough trouble twisting my kid brother's arm convincing my kid brother to add his signature to a petition without you lot 'aving a go at him ... (Thank Darwin I forgot to mention it to my Mum or we'd have a 310-page essay on the subject).
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2007, 11:28 AM »
Anyone hold out any hope for the new law restricting the building of new golf courses in Andalucia?

P.S. How's the petition promoting going everyone?
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline lisa

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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2008, 07:50 AM »
Just found a video of, as it says, the mushrooming of golf courses in Spain. In it they ask does every Spaniard has a Ballesteros inside them? And whether having 300+ golf courses is not comparable to growing melons in Finland? As we know, the spokesperson for Greenpeace confirms the reality of the price of real estate being raised by 30% just by having a golf course on its doorstep. Ecologistas en Acción
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline lisa

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« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2008, 21:50 PM »
Well, I wasn't expecting to post this as a reason to sign the petition....but an article in El País tells of a U.S. golfer who has killed a falcon because it was annoying him. Apparently the bird's calling was distracting him from making a film so he started throwing balls at it. One of them hit it. The article doesn't say where this happened or what the species was.
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2008, 16:14 PM »
Greetings All,
First of all, thanks to all those who've already signed the petition :clapping:
With a view to reminding those of you who haven't yet got round to it to please do so, am preparing an update on this issue.
In the meantime, the New York Times last week published an interesting article on the critical water situation here - obligatory reference to golf courses included:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/world/europe/03dry.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=Murcia&st=cse&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Looking-forward-to-report-record-number-of-signatures-before-summer regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2008, 07:53 AM »
There's a particularly pertinent point in the article on page 2;

Grass on golf courses or surrounding villas is sometimes labeled a “crop,” making owners eligible for water that would not be allocated to keep leisure space green. Foreign investors plant a few trees and call their vacation homes “farms” so they are eligible for irrigation water, Mr. Pérez Gracia said.

“Once a property owner’s got a water allotment, he asks for a change of land use,” he explained. “Then he’s got his property and he’s got his water. It’s supposed to be for irrigation, but people use it for what they want. No one knows if it goes to a swimming pool.”


Here's a link to the petition again.
www.picos-accommodation.co.uk
Accommodation, ski touring, snowshoeing, walking and info on the flora and fauna of the Picos de Europa.
SAVE SPANISH BEARS!
And now,
The Picos de Europa
Your complete English guide to these beautiful mountains of Northern Spain.

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2008, 18:41 PM »
Greetings Lisa,
So those particular paras struck you, too :clapping:
Great minds think alike  :angel: (Sp. anyone?)
Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2008, 11:57 AM »
Greetings All,
Update on our water wars:

Quote
La gestión del agua también se corrompe
La ONG Transparencia Internacional alerta del descontrol de la riqueza acuífera y asegura que el Gobierno sólo tiene registrados el 20% de los pozos de España
PABLO LINDE - Madrid - 26/06/2008
España tiene una riqueza de agua subterránea completamente "descontrolada". La ONG Transparencia Internacional (TI) presentó ayer simultáneamente en Madrid y en las Naciones Unidas su informe sobre corrupción, que tiene un capítulo especial en el que alerta sobre la gestión fraudulenta de los recursos hídricos.
El presidente de TI en España, Jesús Lizcano, instó a los partidos políticos a sellar un pacto de Estado sobre el agua que solucione tres problemas fundamentales: "Algunas subvenciones agrícolas que son perjudiciales para los recursos hídricos, la falta de transparencia en la gestión del agua y el caos en los acuíferos subterráneos".

(Basically refers to the fraudulent use/management of water resources and says that Spain - and its political parties - needs to reach a pact at the highest possible level to prevent some agricultural subsidies which are harmful, the lack of transparency and to do something about the reigning chaos...)

Read more here:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/gestion/agua/corrompe/elpepiesp/20080626elpepinac_12/Tes
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266