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Spanish civil war

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Offline Jill

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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2007, 15:44 PM »
Golly-Gosh, you chaps have been busy while we've been absent from terra firma!

Many thanks for all the new ideas, which will all be added to Xoë's list. (I can see we're going to have to sling out some lead to make way for all this new ballast.) Technopat, your account of your abuela-in-law's memoirs is especially fascinating. We look forward to more (!) and we look forward to your Spanish friend's list of recommendations.

Jill
pp Xoë (Shortish-cut for an e with a dierysis : number lock on, press Alt and mkli (0235), remove finger from Alt key... and don't forget to turn off number lock. Sometimes I wish I'd just named her Eva.)

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2007, 16:20 PM »
Greetings All,
Re. Lucy's Mantequero, have decided to add Mrs Technopat to my list of Usually Reliable Sources as an Honorary/Honorific Member i.e. she gets to contribute to quenching my thirst for knowledge for free  :dancing: .

Trying to get to the bottom of this Mantequero biz. I came up against two similar but confusing references which have since been clarified (?) for me.

A) El mantequero was the name given to the man who went round door-to-door (in Madrid) selling butter (mantequilla) and honey. Mrs T. says he used to wear a sort of rough harness over his shoulder from which hung two large earthenware/clay (?) pots which contained respectively, h. and b. Remember those signs back 'ome in the LOG: "No hawkers, peddlars, etc..."?

B) On the other hand, manteca (which I had always understood to mean lard, and which the DRAE gives as the 3rd meaning*) - as opposed to mantequilla is also used in the bogeyman concept as the person el mantequero or sacamantecas who picked up lost kids,stuck 'em in the sack, killed 'em and sold off the various by-products, especially the lard (the implication being that no-one would tell the difference between human and pork lard) and lard of course being the only meat protein product poor people would have access to, hence its traditonally mandatory use in many Spanish dishes.

There does seem to be some confusion as to the difference 'tween this particular bogeyman and "El hombre del saco" - which does have a Català equivalent (but I can't do the accent - maybe something like els hom dels sac?).

As for the the "sackman", he is supposed to grab the kids and pop 'em into his sack with the following rhyme:

Dentro del saco irás y dentro del saco morirás or words to that effect.


Quote
DRAE:
manteca

(De or. inc.).

1. f. Producto obtenido por el batido, amasado y posterior maduración de la crema extraída de la leche de vaca o de otros animales. Manteca de vaca, de oveja.

2. f. Grasa consistente de algunos frutos, como la del cacao.

3. f. Gordura de los animales, especialmente la del cerdo.

4. f. Gordura del cuerpo humano.

5. f. Sustancia grasa con ingredientes usada como afeite o medicamento, pomada.

6. f. Nata de la leche.

The following Spanish Wikipedia article - ostensibly reporting a true event - although if y'all thought that the English Wikipedia was excessively unreferenced or poorly-sourced, you should not visit Wikipedia in other languages. Mind you, I'm not saying that such things didn't happen - in fact I'm sure they did - it's just the poorness of the sourcing that gets me most, together with the attempt to make it look well-referenced and well-documented (the stuff of most urban myths, etc.)

Hope y'all be able to sleep well tonight >:D
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lucy

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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2007, 22:06 PM »
Thanks Simon, that one escaped.  Please point out any other lapses into hybrid-speak.

TP, the info you’ve found suggests a Bill Sykes type of Mantequero, quite easy to believe in, especially when times were hard.  The impression given by Brenan in “South of Granada” is of a more supernatural figure.  I’ve dug it out and here’s a quote:

“a mantequero is a ferocious monster, shaped outwardly like a man, that lives in wild uninhabited places and feeds on human manteca, or fat.  When brought to bay it makes a shrill, whinnying sound, and, except when recently gorged with food, it is thin and emaciated.”    That’s why the gypsies thought Brenan’s friend was one – they found him walking about in the barrancos, he was producing strange unintelligible sounds, and was skinny.

Offline shiner

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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2007, 18:18 PM »
THE SPANISH LABYRINTH BY GERALD BRENAN   CONSIDERED TO BE A CLASSIC ACCOUNT OF THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL BACK GROUND OF THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR AND ALL THE OTHER PREVIOUS UP RISINGS, GETS RIGHT TO THE "NITTY GRITTY2 AVAILABLE ON LINE FROM WWW. PLAT.COM 24 EUROS DELIVERY F.O.C.

Simon

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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2007, 06:56 AM »
Now here’s me feeling guilty again! I’ve promised to catch up on this thread but have been sadly waylaid for too long, so another typical Simon post trying to discuss a whole host of issues.

Firstly; I only let slip about the psychology thing as a quip between me and Teeps. I wouldn’t want anyone to feel that I’m claiming to be any sort of authority here, it’s just that it’s the degree wot I took like and, in passing, scraped through by the skin of my teeth! In fact I only did that because during my twenties, in those days before Thatcher, I realised that middle class kids actually got paid to sit around smoking and talking about sex (and occasional a bit more!), which seemed like paradise to me!

I do know some of my stuff, however, and I think there is a world of difference between an individual’s needs to come-to-terms-with, address, etc. their trauma, and a whole society’s need to reconcile itself with the past. Moreover, within each of these fields of concern there are many schools of thought regarding ‘treatment’ or the path to resolution. These range from the psychoanalytical, which suggests that only by exploring and uncovering the past can the pain endured in the present be ‘resolved’, to the pragmatic approaches such as behavioural and cognitive psychology, whose modus operandi focus on examining issues as they are experienced in the here and now, and a whole lot of others in between. One very important point here is that none of these approaches are entirely ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ but complement each other depending not only on the nature of the ‘problem’ but also on the personality of the individual. So it’s a big mistake to generalise that the past should be raked over in order resolve the present. I’m thinking of a sad film I saw a few years ago made by a second-generation refugee from New York who returned to Galicia to investigate the village atrocity. She dug and dug, eventually even interviewing the local uniformed thug who’d ordered the dastardly deeds, by then a very old man. She ended by returning to her cousins with all of this evidence of the past; documents, old newspaper articles, etc. plus the address of the cop and the interview on tape. The camera carried on rolling while the cousins shuffled their feet and looked away in embarrassment and pain until eventually a senior uncle simply asked her to go away. This is an example of bad ethics. I suspect that what was going on was a combination of the filmmaker’s need to address her own ‘stuff’, as they say, plus the fact that the film was in the running for a prize back in the U.S., which is really bad ethics!

It seems to be quite a common experience for us foreigners to be selected for a bit of memory cleansing because we are neutral and by definition somewhat apart. I suppose the least we can do is respect and honour the confidence. A final note; I’ll never forget a point made in a lecture by the late R.D. Laing, a very radical thinker indeed, on the subject of mental health, who said, “Cure? Isn’t that something you do with bacon?” to illustrate that perhaps the whole paradigm is mistaken. There are some things that simply don’t get better, like bereavement, but we can come to terms with as, ultimately, they are experiences that sooner or later we will all share.

Now my head hurts, so on to other things:

The uniformed bogeymen; my first encounter with Spain/Spanish cops was at Alicante airport in 1983 and they didn’t faze me at all – rather the opposite as they slouched around smoking and chatting! Having said that we were used to armed police as we used to spend  quite some time in Germany and Holland (and the German polis are really freaky!) so armed police weren’t a new sight at all. Plus the fact that the early Thatcher years coincided with my own most formative period, so when you think of that era; the Falklands war and above all the miners’ strike (when, for those of you who weren’t around, Thatcher had army units dressed up as policemen the better to thrash the colliers into submission). In my naivety I suppose that I arrived in Spain during one of the liberal spells of the early post Franco period. In fact just the other day I learned to my horror how recently political brutality and imprisonment occurred; one of our best friends described how she was chased into a stair well by two coppers and beaten black and blue and senseless, spending two weeks in hospital while all the men folk were banged up. The point is that she is only 43, so while I was grooving away up a mountain and dreaming finca dreams, all this bad stuff was going down in the cities!

The non-uniformed bogeymen. A big thanks for this Techno and Lucy; I had a brilliant ‘charla’ last Sunday when I asked by Catalan Vermut circle about El Mantequero. None of them had ever heard of him, just as Lucy described, but they launched straight into the Catalan  ‘El home del Sac’ and, after a short discourse on our own ‘Sandman’, whom everyone thought was really horrific (my version steals children’s eyes if he catches them awake!) to a brilliant evil/good character called the Cagatió which is a small wooden animalistic stature with four feet. In the days leading up to Christmas the children have to propitiate the deity with gifts of food, especially oranges and tangerines, whose remnants are spat out during the night. My friend described how terrified she was that the Cagatió would grab her hand while she was leaving the offering! The good news was that on Christmas morning all the gifts came back with interest, and the last ‘caga’ was always a bonbon!

Regs

Simon

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2007, 14:39 PM »
Greetings Simon and All,
Guilt, Simon?  Now what exactly ... >:D
Having made the wonderful discovery that whilst lolling (laughing out loud) about 'ere at this great iberianatureforum and bandying innocent words with other like(?)-minded weirdos iberianatureforumers I was able indulge in a bit of escapism aka to keep out of harm's way aka keep out from under feet/penetrating gaze of psychologist/therapist partner* - I now find myself trying to come to terms with the shock of finding out that my original reading 'tween the lines/gut-feeling re. some of Simon's qualms was on track. Nothing like having to confront the truth when it comes out. Question is, what does one do with it once it's out? So which way to turn? Every which way but loose :dancing:

Returning to how to deal with confidences - speaking off the top of me 'ead, not being a therapist, nor a Catholic nor having undergone therapy, yet, - the fact of being able to tell another "chosen one" of one's fears, crimes, etc., and not be judged for them, must necessarily "cleanse the soul" and therefore make one a stronger (better?) person. In the case of my late Grandmother-in-law, she had learnt (?) to live with the death of her sons and other tragedies in her life and outwardly bore no grudges. But she always insisted in prevention - as in education - rather than justice - as in an eye for an e. and that however terrible war is per se., there's nothing worse than a civil war, as the level of distrust among family, friends, workmates, neighbours, etc. is absolute. In other forms, there is often/usually a common enemy, an external factor which unites rather than divides.

*reached the conclusion many years ago that our long-lasting relationship must be due to Mrs T using me as a benchmark with which to compare some of her more "difficult" cases and that it helps her become a better person and professional.

Ramblin'-again regs.,
Technopat

PS.
Sorry for keeping off the Ib. Pen. track, but I need clarification on at least one issue, as I am indirectly alluded to in the following:
Quote
and above all the miners’ strike (when, for those of you who weren’t around, Thatcher had army units dressed up as policemen the better to thrash the colliers into submission).

No, I wasn't - fortunately - one of the miners (or the others), but I was already living in Spain and there was zero coverage in Spanish press on anything going on abroad - around that time Spain was going through its own reconversión - so I only got to hear of it indirectly and as old news. Is the above actually documented or is it an "I-can-well-believe-it" urban myth?

PPS.
Re. digging down and uncovering heaps of nasty stuff - Mrs T once told me re. hypnosis as a therapy that it was truly dangerous if not used correctly 'cos people first need to be taught how to cope with stuff before being confronted with said stuff and that needless to say, many/most hypnotherapists were not sufficiently professional to be doing what they were doing. But I'll stop now, 'cos the stories I could tell ... belong to a different kind of forum.

PPPS:
Simon, as a curious bystander from Madrid :technodevil:, I feel the need to ask for your interpretation of the Catalan obsession with Cagatió and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganers?
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

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« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2007, 10:40 AM »
Hi TP and other historians,

I take your point about the possible mythology surrounding the miners’ strike. I suppose the definitive evidence won’t emerge until the relevant thirty-years disclosure comes around. Although I suppose there must by now be respectable histories written on the subject it’s not my field of interest thee days and I simply don’t trust things like Wikipedia on such matters, if indeed any others! My opinions were based on TV documentaries which came about around that time and testimonies by actual miners who did the rounds of university student unions giving lectures and raising funds for the soup kitchens that the mining communities became dependent on as the strike went on and on. So, for what it’s worth the evidence came in various forms, and I’m sure TV news archive coverage can bear this out:

1) The ‘special’ units arrived at the battlefields pitheads in separate transport, the normal police had their own.
2) Unlike normal coppers they didn’t wear identity numbers on their ‘uniforms’ and these latter did not comply with those of the forces, e.g. the Met, West Mercia Constabulary, etc. who were known to have been drafted in (on amazing overtime rates!); even fatigues bore the insignia of the different forces and the officer’s number stitched onto the collar.
3) They didn’t work alongside the regular units and didn’t use standard equipment or procedures, like sporting riot shields and baton charges, rather they romped in straight hand-to-hand combat.
4) This is funny if it wasn’t so sad; if one lost his helmet in the fray he instantly bolted out of view of the cameras. Why? You can tell a British squaddy’s scalp a mile away that’s why! Those were the days of absolutely appalling haircuts (see What Ever Happened to the Likely Lads!) and the police, only human after all, were particularly susceptible to bouffant, backcombing and, above all, sideburns!

Bringing the point back to the thread (about time, I hear you all cry) there’s a general point that control of the media distorts history to the extent that people’s view of it is completely distorted, so the word ‘truth’ loses any meaning In an objective way, and only has any value at all as the subjective reality for individuals. Which is why the manipulation of history is such a serious subject and censorship, especially the self-censorship practised by people working within systems like academia or the press or even Internet forums, is a subject about which I am especially prickly – as some of you know!

In Spain, the lack of a consistent ‘truth’ is one reason why there is such a huge problem with personal and communal reconciliation. I made the point earlier that bereavement, however painful it is to suffer, is not an ‘illness’ and should not be subject to ‘treatment’, and that the objective ‘cure’ is misplaced. I think this holds true for victims in general and victims of the Civil War in particular. The main argument against this being that as the cause/object of the loss is out of the ordinary run of life, so that it can be classified as an illness process, like we nowadays accept Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome as being a ‘normal’ reaction to overwhelming and unusual events, hence the squads of psychologists drafted in after the Atocha bombings. This is a very cogent argument indeed, but I think there is mileage in assessing the extent to which time has passed in thinking that this is a useful approach. Put simply, is an undeniable history suitable for consideration as an illness, and thus susceptible to a whole battery of treatments, or (and it’s not a black and while issue of course, this is just for the sake of argument) should the past be left to itself and itself be the healer?

Now my head really hurts! I want above all else to immerse myself in Techno’s question about the, shall we say, earthiness of the Catalan psyche, i.e. cagatiós, etc. Methinks this really does belong on another thread, so when I’ve had my rest cure I’ll pick it up there!

Regards

Simon

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2007, 14:05 PM »
Greetings Simon and All,
Don't get me wrong (Sp. anyone?) Simon re. urban myths/miners' strikes - I am all too ready to believe it - was anything beyond her determination to impose her own beliefs on a willing nation? Reason I ask is that I need facts to help me in my frequent conversations with Spaniards brought up to believe that the Thatcher years* were the best thing since sliced bread (same generation who has no idea/interest in knowing what led up to the Sp. civil war or what went on afterwards).

*remember that great expression "shareholder society"?  :technodevil:

Regs. from a self-imposed exile expat from the very early Thatcher years :dancing:
Technopat

PS.
Yer term "earthiness" does explain at least the pagan aspects of the Catalan psyche, Simon  :biggrin:
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2007, 18:33 PM »
Greetings Xoë and All,
Many people are speaking highly of Almudena Grandes’ latest novel (El corazón helado, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_coraz%C3%B3n_helado, 2007, Tusquets) which is built around extensive personal accounts.

Another writer whose stuff I haven’t read, but I have on good authority that his stuff is very depressingly descriptive of the war years and posterior concentration camps, is Max Aub, who was a writer/intellectual (responsible for buying Picasso’s Guernica for the Paris Expo) http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Aub.

Regs,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2007, 00:32 AM »
Greetings All,
Just had an interesting conversation re. books on Spanish Civil War and there follows a list of recommended reading of both history books and novels, given me by a Spanish historian, plus Wikipedia links. Apologies for any repetitions.

Novels:
La plaza de diamante by Mercè Rodoreda http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_plaza_del_Diamante

Enterrar a los muertos by Ignacio Martínez de Pisón http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacio_Mart%C3%ADnez_de_Pis%C3%B3n#Literatura

El diario de Hamlet García by Paulino Masip http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulino_Masip#Literatura

Los girasoles ciegos by Alberto Méndez http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_M%C3%A9ndez

History books:
The Spanish Civil War by Paul Preston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Preston
Franco – Paul Preston

Las Brigadas Internacionales by Luigi Longo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Longo

The Spanish Civil War by Antony Beevor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor

The Spanish Republic at War, 1936-1939 by Helen Graham, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2002

La soledad de la República and El escudo de la República by Ángel Viñas http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81ngel_Vi%C3%B1as

The Spanish Labyrinth: An Account of the Social and Political Background of the Civil War by Gerald Brenan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenan

Regs.,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline nick

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« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2007, 15:49 PM »
Many thanks for that Technopat
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2007, 21:10 PM »
Hii

Tonight on Canal6 which I suspect is Murcia only again there is to be "el debate" concerning la historia memoria of the Franco period with  two people talking about their parents' personal histories and then discussion with  reps of PP PSOE  communists and a professor emeritus of a (I think) theological institute.  Shame I done have Spanish tv but there is a website I think.
SueMac
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Offline Jill

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« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2007, 14:49 PM »
Hola

The books have arrived, and Xoë is gobbling them up. Before they arrived I whetted her appetite for Hemingway by describing some of the incidents - and so this was one of the first that she tucked into. After she was through, she said, "You got it all wrong. That stuff you talked about wasn't by Hemingway." Furthermore, she then told me where it was to be found: in Antoine de St Exupery's Wind, Sand and Stars.

I've checked this out, and Xoë was right: Chapter 9 - Barcelona and Madrid 1936.
St Ex evidently spent a few weeks here and visited the front. He makes very astute observations - but comes out of the experience still not understanding why the Spanish were willing to kill each other / die for their ideologies. One of the most chilling and perturbing incidents is the one where he went out with some Republicans on a night patrol. They knew that the enemy was on the other side of the valley - and they knew the enemy as friends. The men called greetings to each other across the darkness and the void.

St Ex was an absolutely brilliant writer, and this chapter shows him at his very finest. It's a very troubling account. Possibly the most troubling questions are these: "Are the people who lived like this the same as the Spanish of today? Could these, our friends, who seem much like us, fight in the same way, against one another?"
And secondly, "Are the Spanish different, or can all people behave in this insane way?"
I don't know about the first question, but I think that the answer to the second is, NO. In a way the civil war mentality seems to have been oddly like the fiesta mentality. Give everything for the moment.

Jill

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2007, 16:02 PM »
Greetings All,
This kind of posting is necessarily going to be even more long-winded than normal ones >:D.
Treading warily and carefully here as it is clear the forum is being read by ever-more people from all over the world and passions can run very high on this particular topic, as will also become increasingly evident, I'm sure. We've already met up with the perfectly valid opinion of both Spanish and non-Spanish people re. what a bunch of weirdo non-Spaniards are doing "interfering" in Spanish matters. Matters so apparently non-controversial as the ecological effects of building golf courses in unsuitable places.
Whilst it is impossible to completely detach oneself fully from one's beliefs and pre-conceived ideas, whether these are culturally imposed or reached at through personal reflection - and personally I don't believe anyone who says they can -, I have been here many years trying, admittedly in my more despondent moments, to understand how and why members of the same family in a modern society are willing to kill each other for an idea. Personally, I can't understand the "need" to kill, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it's part of human nature, a genetically-inherited trait from some primitive ancestor. As I mentioned elsewhere, one of the more interesting aspects of being a resident foreigner here is that the most unlikely people are willing to open up and talk of, and give their opinions on, things which I'm sure they've been holding back on for years.

I've heard dozens of versions from both sides and from all walks of life regarding the causes and effects of the Spanich Civil War. And in each case, I have had no reason to doubt the version told me - each person tells his or her own reality as they see/live it. I have also read many "official" documents and am at present reading the memoirs of Franco's head of the navy during and after the war. Makes depressing reading and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. The hatred with which he speaks of the vile murder of his own troops (actually he only mentions the officers), while whenever his guys kill a rojo it is all for the glory of the Patria, is curious, to say the least. As has been pointed out once or twice already, there were atrocities committed by both sides - and each side justifies them as they can - it does seem that a large number of the civilian deaths among supporters of the Republic were the result of "officially" sanctioned death squads from the Falange carrying out actions and orders from above whereas the large number of civilian deaths among supporters of Franco were the result of uncontrolled deaths squads which were specifically condemned by the authorities.

Apart from the inherently violent nature of the matter, one apparently insignificant thing that gets my goat on these issues is that all these people of honour who love their Patria so much and then come to power through a coup d'etat (itself a criminal act) - Franco, Pinochet, etc. - all swearing allegiance to the government they serve only months before overthrowing it and taking forceful control of its institutions. And of course, by coincidence it's years before they can get the country's approval through elections - not that that is all that difficult to arrange. How can anybody consider them persons of honour and support them if it were not for their own personal gain?

Way too long and I haven't even started with what I was going to write.

Regs.,
Technopat

PS.
In answer to Jill's questions re. present-day Spaniards vs. Spaniards in the past, speaking in general terms, and not specifically about Spain, I think that given the right caldo de cultivo (En. anyone?), history is more than able to repeat itself and will in fact repeat itself. The atrocities, etc. we get to hear of every day are proof of this and wherever and whenever the next conflict breaks out, some will be for it and others against it, and intelligent people on both sides will argue ably in defence of their postitions. The more conservative elements I listen to here say that Zapatero has managed to create exactly the same level of division in the country as existed at the time of the República "and we all know what that led to", while the less conservative people say that Spain is now a modern country, has nothing to do with the levels of poverty and injustice, etc. existing in Spain in those days and that it's time the conservatives stop looking to the past and start thinking positive about the future. Needless to say, Technopat belongs to the group of those that think ...
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Clive

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« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2007, 16:18 PM »
This topic has become an excellent resource for anyone searching for literature on the history of the Spanish civil war

I have started a new topic http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,863.0.html

In order to discuss further the Spanish civil war and what it means in the present. (re Jill's last question and Tp's answer)

Clive



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Offline SueMac

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« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2007, 15:54 PM »
I came upon the sonnet writer Miguel Hernandez (1910 -1942) while looking for candidates for my alternative list of famous Spanish people. He was apparently a poor goatherd/pastor born in Alicante province. Considered to have written his best sonnets when imprisoned during the civil war.  I have gathered together a little about him. Considered to be a surrealist some of his  titles intrigue:

I live in shadow filled with light.... 
The bull knows at the end of running strife...
He came with three wounds...(Llego con tres heridas.....)
The latter was recorded by Joan Baez on her album 'Gracias a la vida)
SueMac
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 16:03 PM by SueMac »
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2008, 20:33 PM »
Greetings All,
Hadn't meant to write about this Xmas present book until I had finished reading it - in fact I haven't even started it (am actually re-reading As I walked out ... which I bought for myself recently at the iberianature bookshop :dancing: - but I just walked past it on the way into the hall, and picked it up, skipped over the Foreword by José Saramago and read the opening paragraphs - and for the first time in my life the opening paragraph of a book has sent a chill down/up my spine.

Let me explain first of all that the book was given to me by Mrs TP after recently seeing the author interviewed on TV - she says that she has rarely seen such a complete human being (for those of you new to the forum, she's a psychologist and tends to have an insight into such things) and that she was held spellbound by the man. He was one of the first people in which Amnesty International (set up in 1961) took an interest.

OK, so here goes with the opening paras.:

Quote
Fue el 17 de noviembre de 1961 (...) Franco había dado un decretazo que fue más bien un brindis al sol. Anunció la libertad automática para todos los presos políticos que llevaran más de 20 años encarcelados de manera ininterrumpida.

En ese momento, de los 465 presos que había entonces sólo en el penal de Burgos, yo era el único que cumplía ese requisito.

The book is:
Decidme cómo es un árbol by Marcos Ana, published by Umbriel Editores - Tabla Rasa

Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Simon

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« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2008, 22:04 PM »
Hi Teeps et al,
I'm really moved by that quote above. What stuck me also is the publishers' series, 'tabla rasa' which is a phrase that I remember from psychology training as 'tabula rasa' i.e. a clean table,(clean sheet in English) not meaning to brush things under the carpet but in the sense of a new learning experience, cognitive wise.

I'm rambling, but the moment deems it, sorry.

Simon

Offline John

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« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2008, 02:03 AM »
Hello folks....haven't been here for a while, but just caught up with this thread and found it fascinating.

 I'd like to  mention the latest book by Jason Webster "Guerra"

 One of the best books I have read about the Civil War. Easy to read and not hard going like some of the others.  Paul Preston ( author of "Doves of War" ) says "Perhaps only a foreigner, and a foreigner who lives in Spain, could give a truly accurate picture of how the memory of the Civil War still dominates so many people's lives in the country. In all its glare and gloom, this is what Jason Webster's vivid and perceptive journey through the tortured memory of modern Spain provides"

This book gave me a much better understanding of the war and its aftermath than anything else I have read.

 I have a DVD of the six hour Granada TV series on the Civil War made in 1983 as well as a copy of the film made by Orson Welles in 1936...."Spanish Earth". I'm sure we could find a way of sharing it if anyone is interested. Would also like to recommend the film "Pan's Labyrinth"

and Gerald Brennans book "Spanish Labyrinth"

Contact me here or  through my website http://www.tuktuktours.co.uk/links.htm
Small and friendly tours in the Costa Blanca

http://www.tuktuktours.co.uk

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2009, 00:34 AM »
Greetings All,
As part of my campaign to keep old threads alive (?) here's a link I came across today referring to the 25th anniversary of the death of Franco:
El País Digital OK, so it's coming up for 10 years since it was published, and yours truly read it first time round, but for newcomers to Spain and for future iberianatureforumers interested in recent history it helps shed light on (Sp. anyone?) undeniably the leading figure in Spain's contemporary history, and who was directly and indirectly responsible for much of what still goes on here...

Of course, most of the writers contributing are well-known rojos, so whatever they have to say/write on the subject should be taken with a pinch of salt (Sp. anyone?)... :technodevil:

"Those-who-cannot-remember-the-past-are-condemned-to-repeat-it."* regs.,
Technopat

*George Santayana, Spanish-born poet and philosopher
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266