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Caza Mayor dates for hunting last year

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Offline Clive

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« on: March 05, 2007, 22:27 PM »
Hola,

Actually the dates for hunting caza mayor THIS year are pretty much the same as last year.

I am a meat eater and in the past I have hunted and shot animals then later I have eaten them. Not as cruel as what technopat does to his fungus but still I have taken life, skinned it and eaten it. What i am saying is that i am not some goaty bearded fruterian living in a tree.

I am in the role of devils advocate here so please bear with me.

For me I need to know that the food supply is going to be there next year in plentiful supply so please can any one make any sense of this hunting in Andalucia rule book from last year published by the junta de Andalucia and consejeria de medio ambiente.

A few weeks ago legal hunters went into a local woodland to us inside the Parque Natural de la Sierra de Grazalema and killed 14 red deer four of which were pregnant with twins. Carcasses were gutted and the "offal" left in the woods.....No doubt the meat has ended up on the tables as ciervo en salsa for the people visiting the "natural park"

Surely if hunting is for food then the dates are all wrong? Why hunt the deer during the rut and when the females are carrying? Surely to have a sustainable supply of food for the future the females at the very least need to give birth to their young?

If hunting for pleasure as opposed to food then the above argument still applies.

I would like to ask any of you who hunt or know any hunters to explain this bizarre set of dates for hunting "big game"

Clive
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2007, 00:35 AM »
Dear Clive and All,
Thanx, Clive, for taking on the role of D's Advocate as it saves me from having to do so, for the moment, anyway.

I too have lived in Arcady and have hunted, fished, killed, gutted, skinned, roasted and enjoyed eating the spoils of the hunt - admittedly nuffin much bigger than my rather large and muscular cat (definitely got lynx genes in there somewhere), and I have no intention of skinning him, yet. But then, it's not so much the matter of the size of the prey as the purpose behind it being hunted, and or its relative status as a protected species.

As Clive, rather than the D's A. rightly points out (reading between the lines here so treading carefully), it's the hearty folks who go out and have a pop at whatever moves within sight, regardless, that give hunting a bad name by being excessively cruel, as well as mucking up the food supply chain and many other things while they're at it.

I also agree with Clive (?) that the conditions for legalised hunting are crazy and can only reach the conclusion that they are the result of what in Spain and elsewhere is an incredibly strong lobby, even greater than Europe's pleasure boating industry, which until December of last year, at least, had managed to hold out for a reduced tax rate on fuel for their boats.

Have been tempted to bring UK fox-hunting into the discussion, in order to draw parallels, as it is a subject of which I know naught, but as this is an Iberianature forum will refrain from doing so.

Look forward to further feedback on this - either way.
By the way, the Devil's Advocate cannot possibly appreciate the finer points of mushrooms - after all, they are food for the gods!
Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline nick

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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 01:49 AM »
"Have been tempted to bring UK fox-hunting into the discussion, in order to draw parallels, as it is a subject of which I know naught, but as this is an Iberianature forum will refrain from doing so."

Yes, I have to be strict on that one. Only passing references to other countries. Nick
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 09:49 AM by nick »
Nick
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Offline nick

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 09:54 AM »
The only reason I can think of for legally killing a pregnant deer is that it is part of a cull due to overpopulation. Legal hunters will not harm their chances of a kill next year. It's a business and they know how to protect it. Would that be it?

Quite another thing is all the other animals that get blasted/poisoned/snared in order to prepare the ground for hunting.
And another thing still is the effect hunting of rabbits and partridge has on predator species.
Nick
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2007, 11:47 AM »
Greetings Nick (and All),
Your arguments seem sound enough a priori, but the following statement:

Legal hunters will not harm their chances of a kill next year. It's a business and they know how to protect it. Would that be it?

doesn't necessarily stand up to closer scrutiny (unless that last bit was meant ironically, which I suspect it was). The Spanish expression huida hacia delante for which I would love to know the English equivalent - the closest I have come is (pardon my French): fuite en avant.

The age-old belief that the business community, as a whole, knows what it's doing and best knows how to defend its interests, etc. just doesn't hold water, and more so in a sector that I suspect has very few multi-disciplinary professionals running it.

Lobbying is where it's at. And planning long-term just doesn't enter in to it. (Well, OK, maybe it does, in the sense that when your finca has run out of fauna and flora and ceases to be productive and/or receive EU funds, you'll find it easy to persuade the local cash-strapped council to allow you to build a golf course there - to attract all those hordes of Brits).

The history of land management, urban planning, etc. is littered with the result of the worst-case scenario I've just spelt out.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
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Offline Clive

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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 12:32 PM »
Hola,

If you look closer at the dates on the card it says 15th October to 15th of February

Then look at the list of animals and you will see that there is a very good chance that killing an adult female of any of these animals will probably result in killing the offspring she is carrying.

Therefore it is legal to kill a pregnant animal (caza mayor) on any day of the week.

Its the reasoning I can't understand, Have i missed something and the hunting reserves of Andalucia are plagued by flocks of Moufflon?

We have lived in This area of Grazalema for 2 years and have only seen 2 deer. The herd that I mentioned in the first post was a complete family group of Alpha male, females and last years young. The Alpha male head was taken as a trophy instead of leaving him to breed in order to supply the hunters with a future of genetically strong individuals.

I have never encountered such lack of foresightedness when I see that alpha males of species are killed instead of picking off excess males, females or injured/diseased animals.

Therefore i must surmise that legal hunters WILL harm their chances of a kill the following year.

Clive.
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 12:42 PM »
I rest my case, M'Lud.
Legal hunters are members of the community at large - just like legal car drivers. We know that a certain percentage of people drive without their papers in order and the equivalent obviously exists among hunters. What Clive is so rightly indignant about is the legal framework which allows for the system to be abused, intentionally or otherwise. Maybe we should take a line through the number of people - a majority, I suspect - who think nothing of driving through a red light, etc. in the course of their normal day. To say nothing of Sunday drivers, who also have their counterparts out on the hunting field.
Happy hunting!
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Dave

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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 13:55 PM »
Dear All
I really do not think the vast majority of 'Sport' hunters, are selective in what they shoot, often it is a case of seeing it out of the corner of your eye and blasting away, this is particularly true in places where vision is limited i.e. forests etc. i do not have a real problem with hunting for the table, or for that matter a well thought out cull, but ' Sport' hunting I oppose outright, no matter how sustainable the prey. Referring to the first part, in France, and in passing, quite a few people out mushrooming have been shot and killed every year, by hunters who just see a movement and fire, is this true in Spain.
Regards
Dave

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 15:29 PM »
Greetings All,
We seem to have lost our D's Advocate, for the time being, at least.

Interesting article Nick has just posted on the web site:
http://www.fapas.es/notifapas/hoy/2007/20070228_controlfoto.htm

I've been trying to put that point across for years now - and have succesfully encouraged friends/acquaintances to go on photo safaris: but not a single hunter I have spoken to about it has been in the slightest interested!

Thanx for the warning about Sunday hunters taking pot shots at us poor mushroom hunters - I took to wearing very bright colours and carrying very bright rucksacks, backpacks, etc. many years ago for precisely that reason (after many years of trying to blend into the vegetation wearing daft army surplus outfits!) and have actually heard shotgun pellets raining through the leaves near me, causing me to make excellent use of what few Spanish swearwords I knew at the time!
 
I have reached the conclusion that most fauna out there can hear or smell me coming a mile away anyway (I think most animals are virtually colour blind also, aren't they? - I seem to remember reading summat abt them detecting the radiation of heat rather than the colour per se. Does anyone out there KNOW these things.) and most mushrooms tend to stay put when you approach anyway.

Regs.
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
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Offline Dave

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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 16:55 PM »
Dear All
The expression huida hacia delante is best described by the English expression waste not want not according to my Spanish wife, in other words conserve for the future.
Regards
Dave

Offline Technopat

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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 17:50 PM »
Greetings Dave, Mrs Dave and All,
Even at the risk of incurring the Wrath of Nick for converting his nice forum into whatever-it-has-become, I must take issue with Dave's wife (sorry, Dave, hope she forgives you - I wish you'd told me your source was the Collins), but the referred-to huida hacia delante is more like staying one step ahead of events/the game, but with more urgency and really implies inevitable dire consequences in the end. Look forward to more on this, and am willing to be flexible, as it is a good way to describe most policies related to wildlife conservation, etc. (Wouldn't you agree, Nick?)

Following on from the hunter/driver analogy, maybe we should start a sub-whatever-it's-called under the hunting board for roadkill. I'm serious! I often wonder whether all the bichos we casually and tragically write off as traffic victims are really that. I once saw a bird sitting happily on a powerline literally keel off and fall with a thud - poison taking effect, old age, electric shock, bird flu, air rifle pellet? Not many autopsies carried out on roadkill, I would imagine. For a country with such a large bird pop. (domestic and wild), I'm very surprised at the low rate of bird flu being detected here in Spain.

Regards (and apologies) to Mrs Dave,
Technopat
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 00:10 AM by Technopat »
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline Sue

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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 22:19 PM »
Hi to All,

Re the shooting of a family group of red deer that Clive opened with;

in this case it was a group of hunters working together with beaters on a planned excursion. The intention being to kill all that were flushed out into the line of sight. One of the beaters was shocked by the carnage, now you would think he would have been more aware of the possible results!!

Food for thought (shame i don't like mushrooms)
Sue



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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2007, 22:39 PM »
Greetings Sue,
Have I missed any discussions - with or without D's Advocates - regarding the pros and cons of small game vs big game hunting? (By the way, substitute the word beater for drunken driver, etc. and you sum up human nature?)

Not in the least offended by you not liking mushrooms - means there's more for me!
Regs,
Technopat
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline potes

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2007, 11:02 AM »
Hello All

Could anybody please enlighten me in regards to the commencement and termination dates for hunting within the Liebana area this year, also the maximum legal objective ( kills per hunt ) I have been told that there is a ban on hunting this year but could not glean why or whether this ban was permanent or a temporary suspension or if indeed this information was correct.

Any and all information would be welcome

regards

Offline lisa

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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2007, 15:45 PM »
Hi potes, here are some dates for caza mayor in Cantabria. They apply to the whole community except the Regional Reserve of Caza Saja;

Boar
1st Sept. '07 - 10th Feb. '08
Beat type hunts, with a max. of 3 animals per hunt. Wolf allowed during these hunts (no numbers given.)

Roe deer
12th April '07 - 15th July '07
1st Sept. '07 - 28th Oct. '07
Beats and stalks, stags only.
30th Sept. '07 - 28th Oct. '07
Beats and stalks, does.
All Roe deer hunting numbers are governed by each particular reserve as stag/doe numbers are presently imbalanced.
There is no hunting on Mondays and Wednesdays.
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Offline potes

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 18:20 PM »
Thanks for the info Lisa its very much appreciated.

I knew that they should have commenced by now judging by previous years but I have to say that it has been so quiet the past few weekends that I though my friends  comments about a ban might just be true.There has been the odd shot at various times and days but no sound of hounds or the normal sight of large groups of hunters. As they say in the john Wayne films "its quiet, too quiet" just before the arrow hits.(not that I am complaining)   

I cant believe they are allowed to incorporate the killing of Wolfs within the hunt for Boar, simply crazy. 

regards

Offline Clive

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 20:46 PM »
Lisa, Is there a publication about times and dates produced by the medio ambiente like the one that they do here in Andalucia?

If there is then it would be interesting to see the dates to compare with Andalucia...

On our recent trip to the Sierra de Culebra we were told by the hunting guard that the red deer stags were hunted during the rut because they were so busy "rutting" with other males it ws easy to see which one had the biggest horns so that the hunter could get the best value for his money... 12,000 Euros for a mounted, stuffed head....

seems to me that they should shoot the betas not the alphas otherwise they are going to be left with crap trophies in the future.....

Clive
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Offline lisa

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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 23:17 PM »
potes, I think it's the lull before the storm. October usually sees clusters of men clad in khaki, hanging around outside bars with their "trophies" on view.

Hi Clive, welcome back! I got those dates from a hunting website, then got sidetracked and had a look at the new Ley de Caza de Cantabria in which it says;
"2. No podrán calificarse como especies cinegéticas las especies, subespecies o poblaciones de fauna silvestre incorporadas al Catálogo Nacional de Especies Amenazadas, las incluidas en el Catálogo Regional de Especies Amenazadas, o aquellas otras cuya caza haya sido prohibida por la Unión Europea."
The Iberian wolf, Lupus canis signatus is, of course, on the Lista Roja of the Catálogo Nacional de Especies Amenazadas as vulnerable.  :noidea:
(Your hunters have obviously never heard of Darwin.)
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Offline Technopat

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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2007, 02:46 AM »
Greetings Lisa,
What's Darwin got to do with the meaning of Life - unless you refer to survival of the fittest - i.e. the one with the snazziest 12-bore and the luck to be within potting distance*?
Regs.,
Technopat

* as defined by a) being downwind of prey, or b) being at the receiving end of the beaters.
Technopat's disclaimer: If this posting seems over the top and/or gets your goat (Sp. anyone?), please accept my apologies and don't take it personally - it's just my instinctive tendency to put my foot in it whenever/wherever possible. See also:
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,266

Offline lisa

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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2007, 18:10 PM »
Just found out that wolves can be hunted north of the Duero. Can anyone confirm this?
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