Iberianature Forum

Spanish civil war and the present

  • 31 Replies
  • 22521 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« on: October 28, 2007, 18:29 PM »
Some up to date news from the BBC regarding 498 Roman Catholics executed during the Spanish Civil War

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7066094.stm
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 18:31 PM by Wildside »
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2007, 18:53 PM »
The article notes "While atrocities were carried out on both sides, it is thought the right-wing Nationalists killed more people. "

For me this statement does not go far enough.

The vast majority of atrocities committed on the Republican side were committed by individuals and groups outside the control of the government, the unions and the political parties, and the murders, appalling as they were, were frequently condemned by these, including by the anarchists.

The vast majority of atrocities committed on the Nationals were sanctioned and organised by the to-be-Franco State and the military, as part of its official policy of repression.
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 20:58 PM »
At present I am shocked by the turn of events - I hope very much that this is not the end of the story as far as Spanish people are concerned  -  I shall await events particularly on the part of the present government.
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2007, 08:59 AM »
This was the Guardian's take on the Vatican ceremony.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2201082,00.html

"But for many other Spaniards the mass beatification is a calculated retaliation by Catholic church hierarchy for what they consider to be a secular revolution by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, whose grandfather was executed by Gen Franco's troops. His administration has legalised gay marriage, supported stem cell research and streamlined divorce proceedings - moves that enjoy considerable support in the traditionally Catholic country."

Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline Clive

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
  • Sierra de Grazalema
    • Wildside Walking Holidays - Spain
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2007, 09:15 AM »
From the guardian....
Quote
Tensions between the two sides briefly erupted in Rome when a brawl broke out involving Catholic worshippers and protesters carrying a reproduction of Picasso's Guernica.

The painting depicts civil war bombing by German aircraft in support of General Franco, who was backed by many Catholic church leaders. It was held aloft outside the basilica of St Eugene, alongside a banner stating: "Those who killed, tortured and exploited cannot be beatified".

About 30 worshippers emerging from the church, in which services are held by the Opus Dei religious order, traded insults with the protesters and tore up the reproduction, before police intervened.



Jill's queries from her post... http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,691.msg6791.html#msg6791
Quote
St Ex was an absolutely brilliant writer, and this chapter shows him at his very finest. It's a very troubling account. Possibly the most troubling questions are these: "Are the people who lived like this the same as the Spanish of today? Could these, our friends, who seem much like us, fight in the same way, against one another?"
And secondly, "Are the Spanish different, or can all people behave in this insane way?"
I don't know about the first question, but I think that the answer to the second is, NO. In a way the civil war mentality seems to have been oddly like the fiesta mentality. Give everything for the moment.

It's not long ago nor is it forgotten and old tensions rise very easily to the surface......

Clive
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 09:20 AM by Wildside »
Explore the nature of Iberia at www.wildsideholidays.com

The beautiful town of Ronda, the City of Dreams?

The spectacular Caminito del Rey, El Chorro and Guadalhorce reservoirs El Camino del Rey

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2007, 21:46 PM »
Hi all
Well now there  is the National Government's response today to the Franco republican years - and I believe this means a removal of all things which "honour" the Franco years.  Also the onus on local governments to disinter unmarked graves.  I  await events with bated breath. 

Can anyone give me an idea on the political biases of national papers. I looked at two on Monday after the beatitude nonsence and I just couldn't really pick up the nuances as my Spanish is not good enough.
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 13:28 PM »
Hi Sue Mac,

See here for review http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,886.msg7036.html#msg7036
(that's my take on things...others may see things differently.)

Actually I think Francoist symbology in churches with artistic or religious importance - or words that effect - are exempt.

And what about, I'm sorry but I have to say magnificent, half-heartedly de-Franofied Tortosa Eagle? is this exempt? Can't find an image but its stands on an concrete island in the middle of the river. I've been told the town is divided on its fate.

We need Simon, our Southern Catalonia correspondent, but he's not here at the moment.

Gives you the creeps though when you're walking around some village and suddenly you come across Plaza de Generalisimo, and the rest. Let's hope that street names at least disappear soon.
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline Dave

  • *
  • Full Shroomy
  • ******
  • Posts: 1302
  • León
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2007, 16:43 PM »
Hi everybody
It makes you wonder what will happen to a village like El Franco in Asturias, was it named after the General, or does it´s name predate that era.
Regards
Dave

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 18:22 PM »
The village of Villafranco in the Delta del Ebro was renamed Vilanova in the 1980s though I'm told many locals still call it by its initial name

The village was built in the early Franco years to attract workers for the labour intesive rice farms and is certainly the most attractive settlement on the Delta, though, when you look at places like Deltebre, surely a candidate for Spain's ugliest village, that's not hard.
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 10:44 AM »
Steve, I've moved your Paul Preston post to Factual books as I'd like to promote this board more

http://www.iberianatureforum.com/index.php/topic,888.0.html
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2007, 13:22 PM »
A couple of articles in the Guardian

Spain fights civil war's last battle
November 4: Modern Spain is divided again over the legacy of the bloody conflict that engulfed it 70 years ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2204926,00.html

The new laws:

Recognise the rights of those who suffered during the Civil War and condemn Franco's regime.
Abolish laws passed during the regime to dictate sentences.
Provide better financial benefits to the families of the victims of Franco.
Allow occupation of land to identify mass graves.
Force local authorities to remove symbols of the Franco regime.
Ban political rallies at the Valley of the Fallen, which includes Franco's mausoleum.
Provide free access to public documents and files.


After Franco, the forgetting
November 3, Giles Tremlett: Spain is at last starting to recognise the sacrifice made by all the victims of its fascist past.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2204495,00.html

Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2007, 13:23 PM »
And in Today's El País:

Un barrio dedicado a falangistas
Valencia conserva 28 calles con nombres de caídos del bando nacional en la Guerra Civil
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/Comunidad/Valenciana/barrio/dedicado/falangistas/elpepuespval/20071104elpval_1/Tes
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2007, 22:06 PM »
Spanish civil war and the present seems also to be capturing the world press's attention

Spectres of fascist past back to haunt Spain

A new photographic exhibition raises ghosts from Spain that many would rather remain buried - mass graves from the civil war, reports Sarah Wildman http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2206246,00.html

Exhibition here:
http://www.icp.org/site/c.dnJGKJNsFqG/b.2876525/k.9FC1/Francesc_Torres.htm

Dark Is The Room Where We Sleep: A Project by Francesc Torres (at the International Centre of Photography, New York). On September 16 1936, 46 men were killed in the village of Villamayor de los Montes, outside of Burgos, Spain, and buried in an unmarked mass grave. This Spanish Civil War altercation was revisited in 2004, when a forensic anthropology team was joined by Torres, who documented the exhumation of the grave in vivid black and white photographs. The exhibition resulting from this documentation poignantly and forcefully examines the relationships between war, violence, memory, and photography in the context of the buried history of the Spanish Civil War. The exhibition will be accompanied by a catalogue and will be presented at the Centre for Contemporary Culture in Barcelona.



Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2007, 18:44 PM »
Franco saldrá de las aulas
La Universidad de Valencia retirará dos placas franquistas y un grabado que ensalza al dictador del recibidor de la facultad de Medicina

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/Franco/saldra/aulas/elpepuesp/20071108elpepunac_13/Tes
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2007, 20:13 PM »
Hola Nick!
Ese ayudo mi vocabulario espagnol muy bien ;D
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2007, 20:39 PM »
Hola SueMac!
Esto ayuda a mi vocabulario español mucho
Nick
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2007, 21:45 PM »
Hola Nick!
Esta no 'smiley' para une risilla. Gracias....
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline SueMac

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • Susan Bearder
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2007, 15:17 PM »
Hola!
In continuing my read of el Publico ( I am getting near the back now )  there is a piece about a dance dramatisation in called "13 Rosas" at the Teatro Central Seville.  probably only for last Friday.  Byeline is :

Homenaje a las victimas de la Guerra
La dramaturgia de 13 Rosas parte de un hecho historico: en la madrugada del 5 agosto de 1939, mas de sesenta hovenes fueron fusilados contra las tapias del madarileno cementerio del Este. Se les culpo de atentado contra un comandanted de la guardia civil pero su unico deliito habia sido pertenecer a las Juventudes Socialistas Univicadas.  Entre los fusilados habia trece mujeres.

Homage to the victims of the War
I have difficulty in getting the exact nuance of 'parte de un hecho historico'   my best guess is "informed by historical fact".Does anyone know this work?
SueMac
SueMac

Now mainly blogging on www.suevista.blogspot.com Vistas from Afar - A European Garden Blog

Offline nick

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Full Shroomy
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
    • Iberianature
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2007, 15:40 PM »
based on a historical fact/event
Nick
http://iberianature.com/barcelona/history-of-barcelona/spanish-civil-war-tour-in-barcelona/
Spanish Civil War Tours in Barcelona
http://www.iberianature.com/
A guide to the environment, climate, wildlife, & nature of Spain
The Amazon/Forum Bookshop - lend us a hand
http://www.iberianatureforum.com/shop/index.htm
And also now The Natural History of Britain
http://iberianature.com/brita

Simon

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2007, 07:04 AM »
Hello all,

You flatter me, Nick, in saying that I'm the Southern Catalonia "expert"! I'm shocked to say that the last time I was passing througt Tortosa, a couple of years ago, I didn't notice the famous Eagle!!! But I will check it out if I can.

Related: there is an issue (almost said 'polemic'!) in the village of Bot, which has numerous Franco/falangist symbols which pertain to the Ajuntament. If I remember rightly, Bot is the birthplace of  Serrano Suñer, which may explain a lot. It was also a key location in the Battle of the Enbro.

Regs to all

Simon